Mary Have No Other Kids?

[Paladin D]

I've heard on this board that Mary had no original sin, but I believe that person also said she sinner during her life. If she really never sinned, why was she not the perfect sacrifice to redeem humanity? . Of course she couldn't raise herself from the dead to be the eternal king mentioned in the Davidic Covenant, but if she was sinless, then she definitely could have redeemed humanity.

Two differences, that come to mind instantly.

1. She may have been sinless, but it doesn't mean she was perfect. (Only Christ was perfect thus "Perfect Sacrefice", I think I got that right). :confused:

2. She wasn't part of the Trinity, she's still a human being. Just full of grace.

[hyperdulia again]

She was co-Redemptrix by virtue of her cooperation with God's plan. The Virgin was protected from original sin and given graces that enabled her to avoid actual/personal sin. If she had sinned with the Christ in her womb, the Universe would've blinked out of existance.

[Circle_Master]

Also in response to Mary being a perpetual virgin, check this out if you would

http://www.straitgate.com/esgm.ram

sometimes the site is not up, good luck.

It is a debate by "Eric Svendsen, founder and director of New Testament Research Ministries and author of the book Evangelical Answers, debate Catholic apologist, Gerry Matatics, on the issue of Mary's Perpetual Virginity in front of a hostile Roman Catholic audience"

[Paladin D]

would anything actually be taken away from Mary if she did in fact have other children? meaning would this change Catholics' relationship with her, or would it affect her own relationship with God or Jesus?

just wondering, i'll try to rephrase if this doesn't make sense.

In a way, it would effect our relationship with Mary and her role. I'm still a newbie to the Catholic faith, someone else would be able to provide some reasons as to why.

[hyperdulia again]

She couldn't have redeemed humanity by her death, because she was female (first-born son and all), she was not without sin by her very nature, but only by the divine will of the Trinity. The only sacrifice that could purge the whole human race of ssin was the sacrifice of God offered to God.

[Circle_Master]

1. She may have been sinless, but it doesn't mean she was perfect. (Only Christ was perfect thus "Perfect Sacrefice", I think I got that right).

2. She wasn't part of the Trinity, she's still a human being. Just full of grace.

A person who has never committed a sin and yet not perfect? Is that not the definition of perfection? I'm not sure I agree on that. Hyper seems to say that she was part of the sacrificial plan if i'm not mistaken. Not sure I agree about the universe blinking out if Mary had sinned. We are responsible for ourselves.

"full of grace". Well, I'm full of grace too, Christ has saved me. So are you I am assuming, and every other Christian in the world. There is nothing about my salvation or existance that I have earned, I am a horrible sinner and deprave to the very core, only the Holy Spirit sustains us.

[hyperdulia again]

Mulls this is my oh, so not theological and very private opinion. If she had had sex with her HUSBAND and borne children by him it wouldn't lessen by one any other doctrine about her or about Christ.

Circle I'll look at that link when this thread calms down. :)

[hyperdulia again]

She was not sinless by her own nature. She was sinless by God's will.

Fine then if she had sinned with the Christ in her womb, she would have blinked out of existence. No her, no Him.

She cooperated with God's will by aggreeing to bear His son and by forming His human character.

[Circle_Master]

woah hold on. If Mary was indeed sinless why did she die?

Romans 5:12-23 says that death was because of the imputed/original sin. And the wages of sin is death as well according to Romans 3:23

[Paladin D]

A person who has never committed a sin and yet not perfect?  Is that not the definition of perfection?  I'm not sure I agree on that.  Hyper seems to say that she was part of the sacrificial plan if i'm not mistaken.  Not sure I agree about the universe blinking out if Mary had sinned.  We are responsible for ourselves.

Let's try and put this into example. Let's say I'm "Sinless". Never committed a single sin, and never will. But one day when cooking Pasta, I accidently over-cook the noodles, and under-cook the meatsauce. Did I sin? From what I know, there is no category of sin that this would go under. It's an imperfection. Am I still not sinless? No, I'm just not perfect.

I hope that helps.

"Full of grace".  Well, I'm full of grace too, Christ has saved me.  So are you I am assuming, and every other Christian in the world.  There is nothing about my salvation or existance that I have earned, I am a horrible sinner and deprave to the very core, only the Holy Spirit sustains us.

I don't know how to answer this without shoving my foot deeper and deeper into my mouth, lol. But I can say is, that Catholics/Orthodox view this statement differently from Protestants. I would like to provide a link, on what Catholics believe in regards to this statement (it shouldn't be something to debate on, unless you want to).

(Read the 3 paragraphs under "The Immaculate Conception")

http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate...n_and_Assum.asp

(Quotations of the Early Church Fathers are included)

http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp

I hope by reading these links, you'll understand the Catholic view on this matter.

[Paladin D]

woah hold on.  If Mary was indeed sinless why did she die?

Romans 5:12-23 says that death was because of the imputed/original sin.  And the wages of sin is death as well according to Romans 3:23

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that she died, she was "Assumed" into heaven, which is taught through Sacred Tradition. Just like how people in the Bible were Assumed into heaven (like Elijah), so did Mary. Here's a link on the Catholic view of the matter http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate...n_and_Assum.asp (it's under "Assumption").

Sorry if I'm not trying to explain it with my own words, just providing a link on our position. Not something to actually debate against.

[Circle_Master]

The Ascension of Isaiah

"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

My my, this will ruin all our Christmas stories :P

Edited December 29, 2003 by Circle_Master

[Paladin D]

This is a very lengthly and really detailed article about the Virgin Mary. This is a very interesting read when you get spare time. I suggest printing it out, it makes it more enjoyable. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

[Circle_Master]

well yes, if you believe her to be sinless I guess you'd have to have the assumption.

[Paladin D]

well yes, if you believe her to be sinless I guess you'd have to have the assumption.

But you must understand, this was taught and believed by the Early Church Fathers, who were given the Traditions from the 12 Apostles. We also have documents dating far back, that help prove this. It's not something we made-up, but something that was passed down.