Mary Have No Other Kids?

[Donna]

Good night, Mr. Master.

This is the lullaby I have sung to my babies:

Non nobis nomine Domine

Non nobis Domine

Sed nomini

Sed nomini

Tuo da gloria

[Katholikos]

To Circle:

Notice:

Call me a liar one more time and I'm going to ask the moderator to take disciplinary action against you.

JMJ Likos

[Katholikos]

Protestants:

We've had to defend our Mother countless times against protagonists like you. If I say my Mother had no other children, and you come to my house centuries later and say, "Oh, yes, she did," I'd have to ask, who is in the best position to know -- members of the Catholic family who were there with her in the Upper Room at Pentecost, or Protestants who are reading our family album called the Bible and twisting it to "prove" their case? We have known since the beginning of Christianity that Mary had no other children. Our ancestors in the Faith knew her well, were in her company, and have told us, passing the truth down generation after generation. And then you Protestants come along, 21 centuries later. You don't know our Mother personally like we and our ancestors have known her, but you say "Jesus was not an only child." Bull-oney!

I wrote this for phatmass in a previous life. I haven't checked the links lately. They were working when I wrote this, but I don't know about now. You don't need the links to follow the logic and the Scriptures.

You insist that Mary had other children. You undoubtedly are relying on these verses, among others:

Matthew 13:55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not

His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and

Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

Mark 6:2-3 - "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"

Gal. 1:19 - "But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother."

These verses actually named the Lord's brothers.

Let's look at James, Joses (or Joseph), Judeas (or Jude) and Simon.

Let's begin with James. There are two men named James among the disciples. One, of course, is the brother of John and the son of Zebedee. This cannot be him then. So, this has to be the other James, called in Scripture James the less:

Mark 15:40, "There were also women looking on afar off: among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less, and of Joseph, and Salome."

So James is indeed the son of a woman named Mary. Not only that, but Joseph is his brother. That's two of the four, right? Then, in Matthew, reciting the names of the twelve:

Matt 10:3, "...'James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddeus."

This too is talking of James the Less, as the other James, son of Zebedee, is spoken of in the previous verse. So what gives? It is NOT a trick and not really that hard! Pay attention, now. Alphaeus is this James' father, not Joseph, the husband of Mary, mother of the Lord.

Now let's do serious Bible Study. Go to Strong's and the KJV (both Protestant).

http://www.khouse.org/blueletter/

Go to that link, and search for these two passages, one at a time: Matt 10:3 and John 19:25. In the first, click the 'C' icon for the Strong's Concordance, then click the Strong's number for the name Alphaeus. Comes up 'father of James the Less'. We knew that. Now hit the back button to start again with John 19:25. Go to the Concordance ('C' icon), then hit the number for Cleophas, and gosh: it comes up father of James the less!

In other words, Alphaeus and Cleophas are simply two forms of the same name, and that is all we had to establish. Happens a lot in Scripture (John 11:16, Thomas, which is called Didymus; Acts 13:1 Simeon that was called Niger, etc...). So, James and Joseph are the sons of Cleophas (or Alphaeus) and a woman named Mary. Right?

Now, remember when we read in Mark 15:40 where a Mary who was the mother of James the less was standing off from the Cross? Now go to John also speaking of those witnessing the Crucifixion:

John 19:25, "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother (Mary) and His mothers sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene."

Did you get that? That Mary, who was the mother of James the less, and of Joseph, from Mark 15:40, is the wife of Cleophas, the father of James the less, and she is called the 'sister' of Our Lord's mother - Mary!

This still leaves Jude and Simon, though, of the brothers named, right? Your hypothesis is still hanging on by a thread! Two of the four 'brothers' have been identified as the children of parents other than Joseph and the Virgin Mary!

Acts 1:13 "...James, the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelo'tes, and Jude the brother of James..."

There goes Jude out of the picture! Matter of fact, Jude says the same in his own epistle:

Jude 1:1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James...

It is not only NOT being upheld that these brothers 'may' be Our Lord's siblings, but that idea is being REFUTED by the Scripture. See what happens when the Gospels are harmonized? This error about the 'brothers and sisters of Jesus' has been pointed out to Protestants since 1517, but you and others keep on repeating it. A little of the right kind of scripture study, if you'd only take the time to do it, would clear this error right up for you. The first thing you need to do is stop bringing pre-conceived ideas to the Scriptures and finding the answers you want (twisting the Scriptures) instead of studying the Scriptures to find what's really there.

Oh wait! One more! There is still Simon, the fourth brother!

Simon, called the Zealot, is identified as coming from Cana, not Nazareth as were Joseph, Mary and the Christ!

Luke 6:15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, Mark 3:18 Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean...

Matt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Simon is a Cananean, while Jesus is a Nazarene!

Now, about that, and Simon the Zealot being from Cana, and a 'brethren' or 'brother' of Christ, a thought for you! Let's go to John's Gospel, chapter 2. Mary and Our Lord are invited to a wedding there! So, close business associates, maybe, of Joseph from the carpentry trade, or more likely - family, or brethren,

relatives, are having this wedding! Like, maybe the Holy Family had actual kinfolk in Cana, be they cousins, in-laws, nephews, aunts, uncles, all of which are routinely called 'brethren'!

Remember what Mary said to the servants? She told them to 'Do whatever he tells you.'

Think about that a second. What would give this woman from Nazareth any position to boss around someone else's servants in an entirely different town, at their wedding? The simplest and most easily understood answer would be that she is a family relation to those giving the wedding feast... So Simon is from Cana, and a 'brother' of the Lord!

He's not a sibling though, but very likely related to some degree or other. And James, Joseph and Jude all have the same father and mother, and it is not Joseph and the Virgin Mary, but the mother is named Mary and called the sister of Jesus' mother Mary. Even here 'sister' may not mean blood sibling, or we have two sisters with the same name in the same family, which is not likely.

So, do you still want to convince us that where you find the words 'brothers and sisters' in Scripture it means blood siblings, in spite of what the Scripture shows?

Not that it's needed at this point, or shouldn't be...but we do also read about Our Lord's sisters, correct? Maybe they can bail you out on this!

Mark 15:40 "There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome." If this Mary, the wife of Cleophas, is the mother of James the less and Joseph, and also of Salome, then Salome could be called a sister of the Christ just as her blood brothers (same mother) could be called brothers of Christ, without being a sibling, right?

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

There is not one word of Scripture that speaks to Mary and Joseph

having other children, and every single brother or sister of the Christ mentioned by name in the Scriptures can be shown, from the Scripture 'alone', to be somebody else's children. I repeat, every single one!

There was no word for 'brother' in Aramaic. The word they used meant every degree of relationship from blood brother, to a member of the same tribe, to a citizen of the same nation. This was a culture in which members of the extended family and even citizens of the same country were called 'brother.'

We phatmassers are not blood brothers and sisters of Brother Adam, but we call him 'brother,' don't we? Don't you call fellow church members "brother"? Many Protestants do.

A little Scripture study would help you avoid these mistakes. You begin with the premise that Mary was NOT a forever-Virgin and misread the Scriptures, instead of doing the research.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

Circle, you say you have no time to answer this -- but in fact you have no answer to answer this!

JMJ Likos

[hyperdulia again]

O Sanctissima

O sanctissima, O piissima,

Dulcis Virgo Maria.

Mater amata, intemerata,

Ora, ora pro nobis

Tota pulchra es, O Maria

Et macula non est in te

Mater amata, intemerata,

Ora, ora pro nobis.

Sicut lilium inter spinas,

Sic Maria inter filias

Mater amata, intemerata,

Ora, ora pro nobis.

[cmotherofpirl]

Cmom knows.

She's like ...a god.

"In her chic but sturdy wine-red framed glasses".

brown and gold framed :D

[Circle_Master]

To Circle:

Notice:

Call me a liar one more time and I'm going to ask the moderator to take disciplinary action against you.

JMJ Likos

I call it where it is. If anyone did - I would call them on it. I have seen it at least three times with you.

[Katholikos]

I call it where it is. If anyone did - I would call them on it. I have seen it at least three times with you.

Prove it. Show me where I called you a liar. The word is not in my vocabulary.

You have at various time characterized my statements as "calling you a liar" and "insulting." But when I have asked you to justify the charges, you post declarative, factual statements that imply nothing personal about you or your integrity at all. Example: You listed the quote I often use from Newman, "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant," as one of my "insults"! Your defense to positions you have no answer for is to attack the person who holds them.

You have directly called me a liar -- in those exact words -- countless times on this phorum. You have also said that I post "falsehoods," which is another way of calling me a liar. I want it stopped.

JMJ Likos

[Circle_Master]

I noted several times precisely where it was.

You do things such as ...

Knowing protestants believe in a universal invisible church - and then arguing as if we don't agree there are literal physical churches as well. You knew perfectly well that that was true - and it was deception on your part.

That was the last one I called you on - do you deny that?

[Circle_Master]

bump for likos

[Bruce S]

Hey Circle, nice new Avatar.

I guess you got tired of them running you round and round in circles huh?

Now you are GLOBAL, I like that one, taking the entire world on for Christ.

Way to go man!

[geetarplayer]

Why do Protestants interpret a lot of the Bible literally except the part where Jesus says, "This is my body, this is my blood"?

-Mark

Edited January 9, 2004 by geetarplayer

[Circle_Master]

Why do Protestants interpret a lot of the Bible literally except the part where Jesus says, "This is my body, this is my blood"?

-Mark

the same reason he isn't a literal door, or a literal corner-stone.

[Donna]

Ah, but He is like a door, and like a vine.

However, His Body *is* His Body.

[Anna]

To Circle:

Notice:

Call me a liar one more time and I'm going to ask the moderator to take disciplinary action against you.

JMJ Likos

I honestly don't know why they've tolerated it this long. That sort of personal attack, (which Circle is ALWAYS unable to prove, btw) is grounds for deleting, is it not?

Just another case of shoot the messenger, Likos, cuz he can't refute the message.

Pax Christi. <><

[Circle_Master]

I honestly don't know why they've tolerated it this long. That sort of personal attack, (which Circle is ALWAYS unable to prove, btw) is grounds for deleting, is it not?

Just another case of shoot the messenger, Likos, cuz he can't refute the message.

Pax Christi. <><

Don't pull that on me anna... I have provided quotes EVERY time.

Here is the last one I am waiting him to explain

Knowing protestants believe in a universal invisible church - and then arguing as if we don't agree there are literal physical churches as well. You knew perfectly well that that was true - and it was deception on your part.

do you deny it or not Likos.