confession's forgiveness vs. christ's forgiveness

[jesussaves]

So the faith vs. works thing I can say I do not disagree with you. I agree with your concept of justification and sanctification for the most part, but disagree with the wording which is minor. The mortal sin thing, I'm pretty sure I disagree, though still discerning that. Now to confession.

If you believe in Jesus, your sins are forgiven. Why do you need to go to confession when your sins are forgiven?

Edited May 10, 2006 by jesussaves

[cmotherofpirl]

John 20
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

16 Whose sins [i]you forgive[/i] are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

[thessalonian]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='977461' date='May 10 2006, 09:45 AM']
John 20
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

16 Whose sins [i]you forgive[/i] are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
[/quote]


JS,

The problem with your thinking is the God works through men. Let's take the matter of coming to Christ in the first place. Can you show me one place in the scriptures (NT) where someone comes to Christ, completely on their own with no kind of intervention from another human being? I don't know of ANY. Yet because another man is involved does this take away from the 100% total salvation by Christ? It cannot or grace alone is false. Christ's grace is no less because he involved a man in the conversion process.

The missing part of the equation is God works through those he has sent. Now CMP above posted a verse which tells me that God sends men with the power to forgive sins. Does this power in any way lessen or usurp Christ's power to forgive sins. No. It is one in the same. The forgivenss is no less from Christ. You raise a dichotomy where there is none. God works through his creation to draw men to him. There is no denial of grace or the power of Christ in acknowledging that any more than there is a denial of Christ's grace and power in saying that Billy Graham's preaching brough Joe the sinner to Christ.


Blessings

[scardella]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='977177' date='May 10 2006, 12:15 AM']
So the faith vs. works thing I can say I do not disagree with you. I agree with your concept of justification and sanctification for the most part, but disagree with the wording which is minor. The mortal sin thing, I'm pretty sure I disagree, though still discerning that. Now to confession.

If you believe in Jesus, your sins are forgiven. Why do you need to go to confession when your sins are forgiven?
[/quote]

If you believe in Jesus, then you'll believe what He said. He said what is below. Where, pray tell, does it say that faith alone is what saves? Might I mention the book of James? All the people that Christ forgave their sins had to approach him. They had to have some action that accompanied their faith. Their faith literally moved them; ie it moved them to action. So, take that all in, and going to confession for forgiveness seems the natural thing, whereas "confessing directly to God" or not confessing, assuming that faith makes it unnecessary, seems contrived.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='977461' date='May 10 2006, 09:45 AM']
John 20
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

16 Whose sins [i]you forgive[/i] are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
[/quote]

also

[quote name=''Matthew 16:13-19 NAB translation'']
When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. [b]Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/b]"
[i]- Matthew 16:13-19[/i][/quote]

[heyyoimjohnny]

Confession is an application of Jesus's forgiveness, like Baptism is an application of that grace offered us that gives us new life. It being a Sacrament, an outward sign of a transferral of grace, and being exercised by the priest who has recieved authority to do so from the Church, and the Church having recieved the authority from Christ, it is a solid "you are forgiven" from Christ. We can know for sure that we are forgiven. You can ask for forgiveness from Christ, but how can you know for sure that you recieve it? The Catholic's answer would be: receiving absolution in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The scripture has been quoted already where Christ gave the leaders of His Church the authority to forgive sins. That's the dealio. There is no difference, as your topic title suggests, between Christ's forgiveness and the forgiveness we recieve in confession.

[jesussaves]

Sure there's an intermediary. We're the messengers. But once the person gets to Christ, all that mediation is over, and we are forgiven.

Also, we can know we're forgiven just as much as when you go to a priest. I don't see how you can say we're any less certain. You have to be sincere in either going to a priest or to Christ.

In response to the John verse, yes that is the apostle's power to spread the gosple. We all have that power. If you spread it, you save many. If you don't, you won't.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

The forgiveness in the confessional IS the forgiveness of Christ.

CCC 1441 "Only God forgives sins (cf. Mark 2:7). Since He is the Son of God, Jesus says of Himself, "the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this power: "Your sins are forgiven" (cf. Mark 2:5, Luke 7:48). Further, by virtue of His divine authority He gives this power to men to exercise in His name."



Yes, we do all have a duty to spread the Gospel, but this power that is spoken about in John's Gospel is different. Why? Because Christ breathed on the Apostles... the only other time in Sacred Scripture that God breathes on man is in his creation... so this is big. Furthermore, it was a power delegated to the Apostles as they were the ones present--it is a specific mission tied in closely with their apostleship--their position as leaders of the Church... because confession also serves to unite/reconcile us with the Church (the Body of Christ) since our sin affects not only our relationship with God, but affects the Church as well...

Read up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church about the Sacrament, I think you would find it enlightening. (start at about 1440)

[chickens4life]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='977832' date='May 10 2006, 09:35 PM']
confession also serves to unite/reconcile us with the Church (the Body of Christ) since our sin affects not only our relationship with God, but affects the Church as well...
[/quote]


that is a big reason for confession, our sins aren't just against God but against him in the body of christ (the church), so we seak forgiveness from a priest (the reprisentitive of Christ in his church).

also when Jesus saved us he didn't say; "if you believe in me your sins are forgiven." We also have to exept that forgiveness, and the chuch tells us that confession is the way to do this.

[scardella]

I'm going to admit this post will be very nitpicky. I'm in a nitpicky mood, and you're giving me nits to pick.

[quote name='jesussaves' post='977733' date='May 10 2006, 05:10 PM']
Sure there's an intermediary. We're the messengers. But once the person gets to Christ, all that mediation is over, and we are forgiven.[/quote]
The only time you can say that definitively is when they're in heaven. Our time on earth after our initial conversion is one of continual converstion. We are still on the journey to Christ. To continue with my earlier response, confession is a big part of that journey. Until heaven, God often uses mediators. Here we have a specific example of God delegating His Divine Mercy to the authority of the Church with Scripture references to back it up.

Are you one of those who believe "once saved always saved" for lack of a better terminology? It might be helpful to the situation.

[quote]Also, we can know we're forgiven just as much as when you go to a priest. I don't see how you can say we're any less certain. You have to be sincere in either going to a priest or to Christ.[/quote]

I know that in my own faith journey, it's been all too easy to mistake my own thoughts for Christ and words from Christ for my own thoughts. So, I often second guess myself. Hearing from an authority that Christ truly has forgiven my sins does wonders for me. Did I mention that I struggle with scruples?

[quote]In response to the John verse, yes that is the apostle's power to spread the gosple. We all have that power. If you spread it, you save many. If you don't, you won't.
[/quote]

I want to remind you that it is always Christ who saves, not us. Sometimes we act as unworthy instruments.

Secondly and more importantly, it is specifically about the forgiveness of sins. Elsewhere in multiple places He does instruct the Apostles to spread the Gospel. This, though, is more specific. I couldn't tell you the Greek, but if you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, then you should conclude that (translation issues aside) it is written using the word choice, style, arrangement, etc. it uses for a reason.

John 20:21-23
Matthew 16:13-19

[b]Question to those more knowledgable than I:[/b] In the Mt 16 quote, is the "you" addressed singularly or plurally in the Greek? (Here's an example of translation issues that can crop up, btw.)

[missionseeker]

It's not Faith [b][u]VS[/u][/b] works. It's more Faith leads to Works. If it doesn't then you don't really have Faith.

See, our Faith is more than believing. Faith is ALSO doing what we believe, what Jesus has told us to do. I guess you can say that Faith has 2 parts, beleiving and acting on those beleifs. We beleive that Jesus died for us. We beleive that Jesus is the Son of God. We beleive everything that he said is true. And then what? Do we just sit around? Do we just stand by and let things that shouldn't happen happen without saying anything or standing up for the persecuted?

If works had absolutely nothing to do with Faith then why did the early Christians die for their Faith?
Even just praying is acting on your Faith.

James said it best.

[quote]But be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves. 23 For if any are hearers of the word and not doers, they are like those who look at themselves in a mirror; 24 for they look at themselves and, on going away, immediately forget what they were like. 25 But those who look into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and persevere, being not hearers who forget but doers who act—they will be blessed in their doing. 26 If any think they are religious, and do not bridle their tongues but deceive their hearts, their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Chapter 2

1 My brothers and sisters, F9 do you with your acts of favoritism really believe in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ? F10 2 For if a person with gold rings and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and if a poor person in dirty clothes also comes in, 3 and if you take notice of the one wearing the fine clothes and say, "Have a seat here, please," while to the one who is poor you say, "Stand there," or, "Sit at my feet," F11 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters. F12 Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you? Is it not they who drag you into court? 7 Is it not they who blaspheme the excellent name that was invoked over you?

8 You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For the one who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

14 [b]What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. [u]Even the demons believe—and shudder. [/u] 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead. [/quote] [/b]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='977733' date='May 10 2006, 05:10 PM']
Sure there's an intermediary. We're the messengers. But once the person gets to Christ, all that mediation is over, and we are forgiven.

Also, we can know we're forgiven just as much as when you go to a priest. I don't see how you can say we're any less certain. You have to be sincere in either going to a priest or to Christ.

In response to the John verse, yes that is the apostle's power to spread the gosple. We all have that power. If you spread it, you save many. If you don't, you won't.
[/quote]


All throughout the Bible God's forgiveness is mediated. In the Old Testament it was Mediated by the High Preist in the Feast of Yom Kippur (The Day of Attonement) In the New Testament, it was mediated by Christ on the Cross (fulfilling all the OT symbols) and then by His commison to the apostles-since He was no longer there with them. (Jn. 20:23)

[quote]1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation, bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."[/quote]
CCC

[N/A Gone]

Our sins are forgiven, but when we sin we ourselves create a barrier with our guilt. This seperation can in time be damning. This is where confession really aids in fixing this guilt and helping to solves the original sin. Ever do something bad to a friend? lets say you ran over their cat. Your friend can still love you, but if you dont say sorry and/or make up for the act a part of you will always be seperated from your friend. Not because of the act, but because of the guilt you get from performing the act.

let me add, this is something as a revert from an evangelical background that helped me in understand the process of confession

[dspen2005]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='977733' date='May 10 2006, 06:10 PM']
Sure there's an intermediary. We're the messengers. But once the person gets to Christ, all that mediation is over, and we are forgiven.

Also, we can know we're forgiven just as much as when you go to a priest. I don't see how you can say we're any less certain. You have to be sincere in either going to a priest or to Christ.

In response to the John verse, yes that is the apostle's power to spread the gosple. We all have that power. If you spread it, you save many. If you don't, you won't.
[/quote]

Confession is the ordinary means by which mortal sin, in particular, is forgiven. Reception of Holy Communion remits venial sin. But Our Lord gave us the sacrament of confession and so we are bound by the sacramental structure. Our Lord is not, however. The sacrament of confession in no way detracts from the forgiveness offered by Christ, it highlights Christ's compassion and forgiveness.

[cappie]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='977177' date='May 10 2006, 04:15 PM']
So the faith vs. works thing I can say I do not disagree with you. I agree with your concept of justification and sanctification for the most part, but disagree with the wording which is minor. The mortal sin thing, I'm pretty sure I disagree, though still discerning that. Now to confession.

If you believe in Jesus, your sins are forgiven. Why do you need to go to confession when your sins are forgiven?
[/quote]


First, let’s look at the Sacrament of Reconciliation from a Biblical standpoint:

• Jesus commanded it! John 20:21-23 reads:
”Jesus said to them again ‘Peace be with you. As the Father sends me I send you.’ And he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.’

This was Pentecost, the birth of our Church. Over 2000 years, Jesus’ command has been passed and obeyed; our Bishops are the inheritors of their authority. At Ordination, priests get their ability to perform the Sacraments from their Bishop. Therefore we must forgive sin.

• There is no such thing as a private sin. Whether we have committed the sin by ourselves or with other people, a sin always has effects throughout the entire community of the faith. Let me explain it on two levels:

1. If one of us sins it changes the way we interact with other people... maybe because of the shame or guilt of the sin or maybe because of fear of being found, but no matter what, sin affects our behavior.

2. St. Paul's analogy of the Body of Christ (Romans 12:3-8) states that all believers in Christ are united. This means that if one of us sins we damage the Body that all of us belong to. Therefore, reconciliation must be done through a representative of the Body, and for us as Catholics that representative is a priest.


Now let’s look at the Sacrament of Reconciliation from a more personal and practical perspective: that whole "I can just have a personal relationship with God and He will forgive my sins." I just don't think it works real well. Let me explain...

• There's just too many "saved" people walking around feeling guilty all the time. I also think that there are people who don't want to be humbled before God by telling Him that we are so sorry for our sins and that we will do anything to get right Him again...including telling another person the sins we have committed (look at James 5:16). Telling others our sin makes us vulnerable because it shows that we are not perfect.

• A popular trend with our Protestant brothers and sisters is having an accountability partner. Your accountability partner is a friend that you can trust and confide in, sharing those times when sinned and then giving advice and support. If nothing else, having an accountability partner is convicting because you know that you'll have to tell a friend when you've sinned, and thus you try to avoid sin to save the embarrassment. Having an "accountability partner" sounds a lot like going to Reconciliation to me.

• Priests hear Confessions all the time, and are trained in counseling and resolving those who struggle with sin. A priest can give insightful advice that a peer accountability partner may not be able to.

• We long for human interaction, especially when it comes to forgiveness. For example, if your friends talk behind your back, and you forgive them, isn't so much more meaningful and authentic to tell them you forgive them? Or if you done something bad to others: doesn't it feel so much better to go up to them and ask for forgiveness...to look in their eyes and tell them you’ve done wrong? There is real closure in asking and giving forgiveness. That human intimacy in forgiveness is such a beautiful gift from God. Why would we rob ourselves of that feeling when asking God for forgiveness?

[ReinnieR]

"persona christi"

[heyyoimjohnny]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='977733' date='May 10 2006, 04:10 PM']
Sure there's an intermediary. We're the messengers. But once the person gets to Christ, all that mediation is over, and we are forgiven.

Also, we can know we're forgiven just as much as when you go to a priest. I don't see how you can say we're any less certain. You have to be sincere in either going to a priest or to Christ.

In response to the John verse, yes that is the apostle's power to spread the gosple. We all have that power. If you spread it, you save many. If you don't, you won't.
[/quote]

I want to apologize for posting again. It must be really hard to digest all these posts... but since you mentioned one of my points, I thought I'd follow up!

A quick note on your first point: Are you saying that the mediation is no longer necessary once someone develops a relationship with Christ? Look at it like this: we share in Christ's priesthood, to a limited exctent, of course. So Christ shares that power with us. In the same way, we believe He shares His mediation with us, in a special way, priests (and in a special way, Mary!). But this mediation doesn't detract from His. It, in a way, makes it more extensive and more whole.

As for the confirmation of forgiveness: confession is a physical sign, a physical confirmation. You can be in your room and say, "Christ, I'm sorry, forgive me," but what do you have to confirm that forgiveness? A glimpse into the Catholic mentality: we believe that Christ instituted the sacrament of reconciliation for the forgiveness of sins. We can be penitent ask for forgiveness apart from the sacrament, but if we don't take advantage of the sacrament that was instituted for the purpose of cleansing us of our guilt, how can we know that we are forgiven unless we recieve absolution? The absolution is a confirmation, both physical and spiritual. Like I said, the nature of a sacrament being an outward sign of a transferral of grace. Confession is a much surer confirmation of our forgiveness than an assumption.