willguy Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 What does it mean when we say that Jesus is "eternally begotten by the Father"? I always thought it meant that Jesus was eternal, meaning that He had no beginning, but that's not what the words really mean. As it is, the connotation is that Jesus is being begotten throughout eternity. Which confuses me. HELP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 When we say that Christ is "eternally begotten of the Father," we mean just that. The Father is Father and the Son is Son because of that eternal begetting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 (edited) what do 'begetting' and 'begotten' mean? I am not familiar with them, I always assumed 'begotten' merely meant 'was born from' as it was used in the first geneology in Genesis for all of the sons, and some of them had other sons as well. At least one translation I read used begotten that way. Edited December 29, 2003 by Circle_Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 begotten means "born of" or "generated." When used in reference to persons, it denotes a parent-child biological relationship. It's kind of older english, not really in generally usage in reference to persons (though you do still hear of a misbegotten adventure or such occasionally...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 at least two Catholics told me that since Jesus Christ was begotten he could not have had any siblings, and that is what begotten means 'only son'. Is there actually any argument for that, or was that just a regurgitation that someone probably heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 The word does not imply that only one son (or daughter) is begotten. However, Scripture tells us that Jesus is God's only begotten Son (the ubiquitous John 3:16). It makes a distinction between Jesus and the rest of us who are "sons in the Son." That means we are adopted children of God through Jesus, but Jesus is the true Son of God because He is begotten of God. I have never heard an argument for Mary's perpetual virginity (which is what I'm assuming you are referring to with the brothers and sisters) using the word begotten, so I'm afraid I can't help you on that. (There are, of course, many defences for the belief in the Perpetual Virginity, but I don't see the word "begotten" as being one of them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 (edited) He is the only begotten Son of the Father and what that exactly it means to be begotten when one is co-Eternal, I haven't the foggiest notion. I also cannot see how Jesus being the only begotten Son of the Father would have any effect on Our Lady's virginity/ later offspring. Just in case any of that was not clear I believe with the whole of my heart that Jesus was the only Son of the Virgin and that she, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, never had sex, or had other children. I just don't see how "begotten" argues against the possibilityof siblings. Edited December 29, 2003 by hyperdulia again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 He is the only begotten Son of the Father and what that exactly it means to be begotten when one is co-Eternal, I haven't the foggiest notion. I heard it said once that anyone who talks about the Trinity for more than five minutes becomes a heretic.... I'll do my best to avoid that... God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit from all eternity. The Father is Father because He begets the Son; the Son is Son because He is begotten of the Father. That begetting is eternal If I'm not mistaken, it would be accurate to say that the begetting is the Holy Spirit, but I'm not sure we're ready to add that dimension to this thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookofjohn Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Hi everyone! The Trinity is one of those mysteries which takes time to explain as well as to be digested. I'll try to be as comprehensive as possible and try not to create a heresy! haha. The Father 1)Has existed from all eternity. 2)He is all-knowing 3)Since He is all-knowing, He must have an "idea" of Himself. 4)The Father's "idea" is not merely like a human thought/idea(which does not have the capacity to interact) but is actually a person(distinct from the Father). 5)We call that "idea" the Word. The Son 1)Jesus is the Word 2)We see the Father in Jesus, because Jesus IS the "idea" of the Father of Himself! 3)So whatever qualities, we see in the Father, we see it in Jesus. Vice versa. 4)Although, Jesus is an "idea" of God the Father, but God's "idea" or Word, can interact with the Father; e.g. infinitely loving each other The Holy Spirit 1)Proceeds from the Father and the Son, because of the infinite love between them. ---- The Trinity is an amazing mystery, one of my favourites. I once asked, a friend of mine: "What if the Son isn't there in the Trinity?".. "Well then there wouldn't be the Father," he replied. "Because in order for one to be a father, one must have a child. In the case of the Trinity, God the Father, has to have the Son(Jesus/the Word) to BE the Father". And we know that God has existed from all eternity, and there is not one time He is ignorant of something. And because of this fact that was established and the revelations of God to us, we know that Jesus existed from all eternity. And of course the Holy Spirit too! So "begotten" IMHO, is used to illustrate that Jesus originates(not created) from the Father. BookOfJohn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 that's some weird definitions. why can not the terms merely reference the function of the members of the trinity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookofjohn Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Hi Circle_Master! I am not sure what definitions did you find weird in my post. But anyway, there are no specific "functions" to the members of the Trinity(Father, Son and the Holy Spirit), because of the fact that they are united in one Godhead(3 persons in 1 God) and they perform the same thing. (e.g. the creation) ^_^ BookOfJohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 is not the Son in submission to the Father? That would be a function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookofjohn Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 is not the Son in submission to the Father? That would be a function. Hmm.. That in your opinion would be a function? Just a little bit on that post you made, (correct me if I am wrong) the persons in the Trinity do not "submit" to each other.. in a "subordinate" sense (e.g. Jesus is subordinate to the Father). All 3 persons of the Trinity have the same will, so I don't think the Son is in submission to the Father. Therefore IMHO, what you posted can not be counted as a function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." That is an example of subordination. And also.. 1 Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to [Christ], then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One (the father) who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookofjohn Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." That is an example of subordination. And also.. 1 Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to [Christ], then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One (the father) who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. Hi Circle_Master, I have gone and checked a little on this "submission" issue. In response to your post: Matt 24:36; Refers to Jesus' humanity. (i.e. IN His humanity He knows what is going on but not FROM His humanity) As for 1Cor 15:28; We must understand that Jesus is not subordinate to the Father(i.e. making Him a "lesser" God or inferior); rather Jesus submits Himself willingly to the Father, because that is also the will of Jesus(i.e. to submit Himself to the Father). Remember in my previous post; the Father has an idea of Himself; and that idea is the Word. So the Word has to be EQUAL to the Father, and has to have the SAME will as the Father. ^_^ BookOfJohn :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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