ironmonk Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 I first ask everyone to allow Eutychus and me to dialog freely without getting side tracked. (in other words I'm requesting a one on one) Dear Eutychus, Why did you leave the Catholic Church? Please give me specific teachings that drew you out or pushed you away. Thank you & God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote name='ironmonk' post='976827' date='May 9 2006, 06:10 PM'] I first ask everyone to allow Eutychus and me to dialog freely without getting side tracked. (in other words I'm requesting a one on one) Dear Eutychus, Why did you leave the Catholic Church? Please give me specific teachings that drew you out or pushed you away. Thank you & God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] Frankly, Monk, that is my business to know, and I respectfully decline to play those games. If I wanted to be a guest on "THE JOURNEY HOME" I would have called Mr. Grodi and asked for a guest slot on the show. Thanks for asking however, and your concern for my "wandering spirit" as some have tried to label it. Suffice it to say, that upon stumbling over Apocalypse 18:4 I decided to take the advice proffered and vote with my feet. And given the headlines of the past five years, it was good advice indeed that Jesus gave in a revelation from God, to Him, so I acted. By the way, that name Iron Monk, sounds rather Inquisitionish, was that the intent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 10, 2006 Author Share Posted May 10, 2006 Euychus, As the scripture says we must be prepared to give reason for our hope... why won't you give reason? [b]1 Peter 3:15 [/b] but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, I also do not understand why anyone on a message board that is pretty much an anonymous form of dialog would be scared to be open something so simple, if it were the truth. No games, nothing about a wondering soul. I generally want to know. If I'm in the wrong place, I want to be shown the truth. How can we have a brotherly dialog if I do not understand your point of view? If you are Christian and have the truth then you have an obligation to share it with me... otherwise, my blood would be on your hands. Why shrink from proclaiming the truth if you have it? Acts 20:26-27 The Catholic Church is not Babylon, it is not the Harlot, it is the bride of Christ. Please read these answers to your implications: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_th..._of_Babylon.asp[/url] [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp[/url] There are so many other verses verses in the Scriptures... (just a few) St. Matt 5:13-15 St. Matt 16:18-19 St. Matt 18:17 St. Matt 28:18-20 St. Luke 10:16 St. John 1:42 St. John 14:16-18, 26 St. John 21:15-17 Eph. 4:5 1 Tim 3:15 As for my nickname... I first came up with it because I workout and practice kung fu (Northern Shaolin)... then it came to have a duel meaning because I have a solid knowledge of Scripture and the Catholic Faith. There are many misunderstandings of the Catholic Church teachings, some because people are not Catholic and they only get a glimpse of what it is, and other misunderstandings due to people like Jack Chick lying about our Faith. So, please share with me why you left the Catholic Church. Was it because someone convinced you it was Babylon or the Harlot? The first Christian writings, facts about the Church and the Book of Revelations say otherwise. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote] As the scripture says we must be prepared to give reason for our hope... why won't you give reason? [/quote] The reason for my hope? I will let our brother Luke answer for me, as he wrote so long ago... [quote]Acts 16:30 (KJV) And brought them out, and said,[b] Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, [/b]and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. 34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.[/quote] Rather clearcut if you ask me. I'm surprised that you needed me to explain that one to you. I guess when you have too much information, things can get quite confusing. Once I saw a hypothetical question asked. "If you asked someone to put ALL the material that was required to become a Christian in the year 100, with full the theology in one room, then asked the modern Roman church to do the same, but in another room, what would the respective piles look like?" It brought a smile to my face, as the miles of Vatican documents on shelves flashed before my eyes. But thank you for asking, it is nice to see that you are concerned for my welfare. But I rather like the simplicity of the conversion story of the Phillipinian jailer for it's pure simplicity, speed, and directness. "The author of confusion" is not my friend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote] No games, nothing about a wondering soul. I generally want to know. [b]If I'm in the wrong place, I want to be shown the truth. How can we have a brotherly dialog if I do not understand your point of view? [/b]If you are Christian and have the truth then you have an obligation to share it with me... otherwise, my blood would be on your hands. Why shrink from proclaiming the truth if you have it? Acts 20:26-27[/quote] The "wrong place" ? What "place" might that be? Just wondering. Last time I checked, the "place" you were "at" had nothing to do with salvation. What you profess does, however, and that can be any locality. I have an OBLIGATION to share my history with you? Praytell, just why do I have ANY obligation to tell you anything? Are you the mother hen here? The schoolmarm with the yardstick to rap my knuckles? Pendantic posturing is what I see here. And I just loved the way, you told everyone to stay away, cause YOU wanted a quick one on one. Is that how you treat everyone that wanders into this site? I recall a movie once, where John Wayne was on a pinto, and would "cut out" a selected heifer to corral it, and brand it, in the shortest possible time. Is that the role you have on this site, the roper and brander? Just wondering why you are so agressive to a guy that just came in, and really hasn't even said that much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 10, 2006 Author Share Posted May 10, 2006 The Christian Faith is not built on one verse. To understand the Scriptures we must look at what the first Christians said about them and the other Scriptures that speak of the same subject. Let's look at a few words of Christ... [b]St. Matt. 16:27[/b] [color="red"]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. [/color] [b]St. Matt. 7:21[/b] [color="red"]Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. [/color] [b]St. Matt 10:22[/b] [color="red"]You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. [/color] [b]St. Matt 24:13 [/b] [color="red"]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. [/color] If you believe the bible, then how can you honestly say that all we need to do is believe? [b]James 2:20[/b] Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? [b]Please answer my question to why you left the Catholic Church.[/b] If you left the Church for the truth, then I want the truth too. If you left the Church for a reason that wasn't true, wouldn't you want the truth so you can discern for yourself? To love Christ is to love the Truth... even if it goes against what we where taught or lead to believe. If we are fooled by someone, it's not our fault... but to ignore truth makes us the fool. If I am being fooled, I want to know. If someone else is being fooled, then because I love Christ, I must take the time to explain to them the truth. God Bless, ironmonk A few more things... From the first Christians... [b]Hermas[/b] "‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]). [b]Justin Martyr[/b] "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]). [b]Tertullian[/b] "Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]). "We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16). Let's look at the context of Acts... [b]Acts 16:31 [/b] And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved." [b]32 [/b] So they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house. [b]33 [/b] He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then [u]he and all his family were baptized at once[/u]. Believing includes doing my friend... Believing alone is not believing... when we really believe we must do the will of the Father... and as Christ taught... Repent AND be baptized. But again, we are not going to get anywhere unless you tell me why you left the Church? I need to understand your point of view so that I can know if I am in the wrong place. If you have the truth, what do you fear? This is a message board on the Internet... not your workplace, your church, or your neighborhood... I do not understand why it's such an issue not to witness to me why you left the Catholic Church. What teachings drove you away or what other teachings attracked you? Or where you ever Catholic? God Bless & the peace of Christ be with you, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Why THANK you for the selective cullings from dead theologians.... I suspect you chose them, out of the 10,000 others with vastly varying opinions, because they agree with what you want to say? I rather look at dead theologians as I look at living ones. They squabble, fight, disagree, posture, and strut. And given the dismal record of forgeries, fakeries, and frauds surrounding those older "documents" I treat them as a fun read to learn what THAT person, if he indeed wrote them at all, thought about THAT topic. For every one that you produce supporting your position, there are equally others supporting the other positions. And the propensity to quote "dead theologian A" on this topic, but NOT on that topic where he disagreed with the current teachings, and then the OTHER theologian on this one, but definately NOT on the other opinions he held, as the height of hubris and disinformation. I trust you understand that many know how that little three card monte is played, and I don't chose to put my money on the table with a shell game underway. We both know that, so the selective quote from the selected dead theologian game isn't one I chose to play. However, thank you for your cut and pastes, it make me warm and fuzzy to know that kindergarten gluepot and sissors wasn't wasted in the computer age. Best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote]But again, we are not going to get anywhere unless you tell me why you left the Church? I need to understand your point of view so that I can know if I am in the wrong place. [/quote] Frankly Monk, I don't care what "place" you are in. That is between you and your maker. Your pretend concern is a good lift for my otherwise caffeine deprived mind this morning however, if it was so transparently bogus. On the Brier Rabbit scale, I will give you a solid seven for acting, and bonus points for speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 10, 2006 Author Share Posted May 10, 2006 The situation is not like that at all.... Feel free to choose any from the first 400 years that contradict what I have quoted. Please show me. Since you refuse to dialog about things I've asked and ignore Christ's words, I'll ask a few other questions... [b]Since babies cannot believe in Christ, where do they go if they die? Where is the bible verse that tells us this?[/b] [b]What tradtions are they talking about here in regards to oral statement?[/b] [b]2 Thess 2:15 [/b] Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. [b]1 Corin 11:2 [/b] I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. [b]What did St. Paul mean by this?[/b] [b]2 Timothy 3:14[/b] But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, [b]2 Tim 2:2 [/b] And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. [b]Who where those faithful people? [/b] - The ones I quoted. [b]Ephesians 2:20[/b] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Built on apostles and prophets, Christ tells the Apostles to make disciples... who where the disciples that the Apostles made? One was Ignatius of Antioch, pupil of St. John.... [b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b] (~50 AD - died at Rome between 98 and 117. ) THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE SMYRAEANS CHAPTER VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP. See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, [b]wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church[/b]. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. [b]Where in the bible does it tell us to base our entire faith on the bible or our own private interpretation?[/b] [b]2 Peter 1:20[/b] - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [b]2 Peter 3:16 [/b] - speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. [b]How do we know if we have the proper interpretation?[/b] [b]2 Timothy 3:14[/b] But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, [b]So.... please show me writings from the disciples that the Apostles made or the disciples made by the disciples that the Apostles made, and so on for the first 400 years of Christian writings that contradict what I wrote.[/b] If you are not going to provide counter points to the points made why are you here? Where you ever Catholic or are you using someone else's story? Where is the proof that you read the life of Christ? Where is the proof that you follow Christ? Where is the proof that you are not spoken of in 2 Peter 3:16? [b]2 Peter 3:16[/b] speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that [b]the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction[/b], just as they do the other scriptures. How do you know that you are not distorting Scripture unless we look to see what the first Christians taught about the faith? God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote]Since babies cannot believe in Christ, where do they go if they die? Where is the bible verse that tells us this? [/quote] They USED TO GO TO LIMBO, but then that went POOF, and the church hasn't actually gotten around to replacing it with another temporary theology now have they? Which really DOES put a crimp in historic Catholic theolgogy, for, if we ARE all born with the stain of original sin, and without the sacremental regeneration conferred via infant baptism, you now have a Catholic conrundrum. Either the "stain theory" is in error, and babies CAN go to heaven without that NEEDED and MANDITORY baptism .... OR ... they will all go to hell now, since B16 waved a hand and extinguised a thousand years of teaching on his whim. Poof, bye bye Limbo. So, which is it? They all go to hell, OR you don't NEED baptism to go to heaven. Cannot be BOTH now, can it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='977475' date='May 10 2006, 03:56 PM'] They USED TO GO TO LIMBO, but then that went POOF, and the church hasn't actually gotten around to replacing it with another temporary theology now have they? Which really DOES put a crimp in historic Catholic theolgogy, for, if we ARE all born with the stain of original sin, and without the sacremental regeneration conferred via infant baptism, you now have a Catholic conrundrum. Either the "stain theory" is in error, and babies CAN go to heaven without that NEEDED and MANDITORY baptism .... OR ... they will all go to hell now, since B16 waved a hand and extinguised a thousand years of teaching on his whim. Poof, bye bye Limbo. So, which is it? They all go to hell, OR you don't NEED baptism to go to heaven. Cannot be BOTH now, can it? [/quote] They used to go to Limbo? According to whom? Please provide documentary evidence of when the theory of Limbo became more than a simple theological hypothesis and became the de fide teaching of the Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 You know, I was sitting here thinking how the Catholic Church theology is continually changing, of course, she NEVER really "changes" they just make the former LANGUAGE "inoperative" with a new definition and disavow any book, theologian, pope, or council as "not being official"... Roman Catholic theology has more patches applied than the Microsoft Windows Operating System. With the same operating reliablity and transparency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 10, 2006 Author Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote name='Eutychus' post='977358' date='May 10 2006, 10:07 AM'] Frankly Monk, I don't care what "place" you are in. That is between you and your maker. Your pretend concern is a good lift for my otherwise caffeine deprived mind this morning however, if it was so transparently bogus. On the Brier Rabbit scale, I will give you a solid seven for acting, and bonus points for speed. [/quote] [b]2 Timothy 1:8 [/b] So do not be ashamed of your testimony to our Lord, nor of me, a prisoner for his sake; but bear your share of hardship for the gospel with the strength that comes from God. If you don't care, then why are you here? It is not a pretend concern... [b]St. Matt 7:15 [/b] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. [b]16 [/b] By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? How can you call yourself Christian and not have a concern for your Christian brethern? We are our brothers keeper (St. Matt 25). [b]St. John 13:34 [/b] [color="#CC0000"]I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. [/color] [b]35 [/b] [color="#CC0000"]This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.[/color]" [b]1 Corin. 13:2 [/b] And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains [u]but do not have love, I am nothing[/u]. [b]4 [/b] Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, [b]5 [/b] it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, [b]6 [/b] it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. ... [b]13 [/b] So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. If you do not have love, you are not a discple. We must correct our brothers when they are wrong. We must accept correction from our brothers when we are wrong. [b]St. Matt 18:15 [/b] "[color="#FF0000"]If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. [/color] [b]16 [/b] [color="#FF0000"]If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.' [/color] [b]17 [/b] [color="#FF0000"]If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. [/color] I'm sorry that you have been told wrong about the Catholic Church teachings, but I am glad that you are online and you can see for yourself what the Catholic Church really teaches. [url="http://www.USCCB.org"]http://www.USCCB.org[/url] [url="http://www.Scripture-Catholic.com"]http://www.Scripture-Catholic.com[/url] [url="http://www.Catholic.com"]http://www.Catholic.com[/url] God Bless, ironmonk ------------------------ [quote name='Eutychus' post='977491' date='May 10 2006, 11:11 AM'] You know, I was sitting here thinking how the Catholic Church theology is continually changing, of course, she NEVER really "changes" they just make the former LANGUAGE "inoperative" with a new definition and disavow any book, theologian, pope, or council as "not being official"... Roman Catholic theology has more patches applied than the Microsoft Windows Operating System. With the same operating reliablity and transparency. [/quote] Sorry, but again, you are mistaken. The teachings of faith and morals do not change, they are applied to new things in the world... such as taxes, pirating music and violating copyright, such as abortion pills, etc... Why are you avoiding the questions? If you go by the bible, why is it that I've posted way much more bible than you? Surely if the Catholic Church wasn't bibilcal as you have implied you would certainly have more Scripture to refute what I've posted. Why do you continue to attack instead of explaining your situation? If there was any truth and logic to your attacks, one would think it would be easy to show. Alas, it does not appear that way. Please explain to me so that you don't appear to be bitter against the Church for a reason you know is wrong therefore won't say. Maybe this is why you thought you'd be counted as a barking dog? Because that is all you are doing. You are showing a lack of knowledge when it comes to Scripture, History, and most of all Christ. Why should anyone listen to you? PS. The limbo thing was amply rebutted on the other thread on Purgatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote]Why are you avoiding the questions? If you go by the bible, why is it that I've posted way much more bible than you? [/quote] It could be, that YOU are debating something. I'm not. But then, your autopilot mode is amusing to watch in action. Do you have these on macro's? Frankly, I haven't got a CLUE what you are trying to do here, other than to show off for the others on the site. Does that give you the warm fuzzies? Or is that your assigned role, henkeeper and chief protagonist? Just wondering. Since you are all over the place here, yanking this dead guy, that church statement, and a selected verse or two, as if that impresses someone that has seen this game for a very long time? What exactly ARE you trying to accomplish here? I haven't seen such strutting and posturing since Bishop Burke borrowed a Cappa Magnum in Cologne and paraded down the street with boys carrying his 20 foot long trail. But then, if it makes you feel good, I"m all for it, I got my T'shirts the hard way, earned every last one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 Monk. Give your feet a little shake and see if some of that dust will come off. Pray for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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