Bleedin' Liberals In My Family!

[ICTHUS]

HELP! I'M SURROUNDED BY LIBERAL "CATHOLICS"!!!

I just went for a walk with my cousins tonight, and I have come to the conclusion that the cousin whom I previously respected as the most orthodox Catholic in my family besides me, is a heretic.

She has openly said that she disagrees with the Church's teaching that homosexual unions are disordered by nature, that gays should be allowed to marry, and, even worse, admitted to Communion!! She's also said that my grandma has similar sentiments!! She has said that her Archbishop (Anthony Meagher, of Kingston) is wrong to condemn homosexual unions as immoral and that the teaching of the Church regarding homosexuals is wrong.

Can all of you guys put in some prayers for the Lahey family, and specifically, my cousins? PM if you want their names..(to protect their safety I'll only give it to people I trust if you feel it woudl be easier to pray for them).

[hyperdulia again]

I am praying for your family Icthus. I would like to say however that while her views are objectively heretical ones you cannot judge her culpability for them by calling her a heretic.

Read her the Catechism passages relating to homosexuality and remind her that the Church upholds the diggnity of all people and that the requirement that homosexuals not engage in homosexual acts is no more stringent than the requirement that heterosexuals not engage in premarital sex, or than the requirement that sex in general be open to the procreation of human life.

[ironmonk]

You and your family are in my prayers.

If you try to reason with them, you might want to start with what makes something right or wrong. The answer of course is God.

Now, depending on what they say, then you'll have to come up with other questions to guide them to make the conclusion of the Truth.

Since they've known you all your/their life, they might blow off what they hear. Don't be discouraged.

If they disagree with the Church's teaching on this, then they also must disagree with infallibility. You might want to take that angle. Or even take the angle of premarital sex being wrong and why... God gives us rules for a reason, i.e. if people never had premarital sex, there would be no STDs, no AIDs, etc...

There is plenty of Scripture and writings in the Catechism to back up your reasoning.

Also use www.Catholic-Pages.com

www.ScriptureCatholic.com

www.Catholic.com

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Hazilloe]

Are you suggesting that liberals can not be good Catholics, or that people that believe in homosexual unions can not be good Catholics?

I am extremely liberal, and I consider myself a good Catholic. By liberal I mean I believe in governmentally instituted social welfare programs.

Another person believed in social welfare, and His name was Jesus.

I don't understand strict conservatives that claim to be Christian.

Supply side economics is not what Jesus taught.

He never said, "Do not cure the lepers, for that would remove the incentitive to avoid leprosy."

Jesus was a socialist.

[Trying2BFaithful]

Haziloe:

Jesus believed in social welfare? That statement is categorically manipulative. Generically speaking, any conservative would claim to believe in "social welfare." Who wouldn't want to ensure to the overall "welfare" of society? It is clear, however, that you are talking about government mandated welfare programs funded through citizens tax dollars, and I'd love for you to show me where Jesus specifically advocated that in any way, shape or form. Jesus advocated charity, to be sure, but did he say we should force people's hands? No.

The liberal social welfare programs (and I use the term "social welfare" loosely here) implemented in the United States are not voluntary. The billions and billions of dollars that are used every year to fund such programs (like Social Security, Welfare, and Medicare/Medicaid) are used whether we like it or not. Jesus never called for government mandated social assistance. He simply stressed that as individuals it is our duty to take care of our neighbors.

Jesus, a socialist? Oh man you are barking up the WRONG tree here, buddy. If you need me to quote Bible verses where Jesus' teachings support capitalism, believe you me, I will. Taking away anyone's incentives for progress through wealth redistribution does not work. Ask the Russians. Ask the Cubans. Ask the Swedish (who are emigrating in mass numbers as we speak). Ask the Germans, and if that doesn't clear things up, ask JPII's compatriats in Poland. They'll definitely tell you. If you're still unconvinced, ask our pope. He'll speak decisively for the Church.

Forcing people to abide by government-conceived moral code (and yes, how we handle wealth is assuredly a moral code) is unquestionably un-Catholic. The pope has numerous times spoken out against socialism and its most destructive form, Communism. To claim that Jesus was a socialist is not only incorrect...it's flat-out ignorant.

Now, how society is to achieve maximum social welfare, is up for debate. Clearly we cannot eliminate all government organized/funded social welfare programs, but opposing some of these programs' basics tenets (a la American Conservatism) is not anti-Catholic. It's a difference of opinion. The basic difference between Conservatives and Liberals in the U.S., however, is the simple fact that Conservatives believe in OBJECTIVE, MORAL TRUTH...something liberals can certainly NOT claim. Abortion, Euthanasia, Passing out Condoms in school, and just about every other Anti-Catholic aspect of this pervasive culture of death are now SUPPORTED and CONDONED by your liberal, convoluted theories. Open your eyes and realize that it's not Conservatism that's plainly anti-Catholic...it's the ridiculous, nonsensical liberal drivel.

[hyperdulia again]

NEITHER LIBERALSIM OR CONSERVATIVISM ENCOURAGE CATHOLIC ORTHODOXY.

[Trying2BFaithful]

This is true hyperdulia, but Conservatism's basic ideals strengthen, promote, and proclaim the existence of inalienable, objective truth...which smacks at the cafeteria-Catholicism we see too much of nowadays. The basic truths promoted by Conservatism (i.e. sanctity of life from conception to natural death, freedom from religious oppression, just war theory) are in line with Catholicism...Liberals' tenets of subjective, indecipherable truth is plainly anti-Catholic.

Are all conservatives who are Catholics good Catholics? No. Many are, however. I just find it impossible that one can vote for pro-choice liberals (who condone the wholesale, mass murder of 1 million lives every year) and still be "good Catholics." Voting for such candidates equates to partial responsibility for the lives that are lost. Voting for pro-Choice liberals is morally reprehensible.

[hyperdulia again]

You've misnamed Conservatism. What you describe is neo-Conservatism, Social Conservatism.

The guiding principle of Connservatism is maintaining the status quo, I don't think this is a particularly Catholic position to hold and further more I'd say that while the Church's moral teachins look like the Republican Party platform, Her social teachings are surprisingly, and refreshingly, LIBERAL.

[Trying2BFaithful]

Again, I disagree...forcing people to give money to the poor is NOT charity. Doing so is liberal. Giving of your own volition...that is simply charity. Neither Republican nor Democrat.

[Hazilloe]

Jesus believed in social welfare? That statement is categorically manipulative. Generically speaking, any conservative would claim to believe in "social welfare." Who wouldn't want to ensure to the overall "welfare" of society? It is clear, however, that you are talking about government mandated welfare programs funded through citizens tax dollars, and I'd love for you to show me where Jesus specifically advocated that in any way, shape or form. Jesus advocated charity, to be sure, but did he say we should force people's hands? No.

right you are in assuming that i was speaking of welfare funded through government tax dollars. No, I can not show you where Jesus specifically advocated that in any way, but can you show me SPECIFICALLY where Jesus said that the blood and body we drink and eat are PHYSICALLY him? No, you can not, because Jesus never SPECIFICALLY said "This is physically me." He said "This is my body." Is the bread and whine the body and blood of Christ? You bet they are. But I don't need to tell you that.

The liberal social welfare programs (and I use the term "social welfare" loosely here) implemented in the United States are not voluntary. The billions and billions of dollars that are used every year to fund such programs (like Social Security, Welfare, and Medicare/Medicaid) are used whether we like it or not. Jesus never called for government mandated social assistance. He simply stressed that as individuals it is our duty to take care of our neighbors

remember this for a point i'll make in a second. remember you said that the tax dollars we give are not VOLUNTARY.

Forcing people to abide by government-conceived moral code (and yes, how we handle wealth is assuredly a moral code) is unquestionably un-Catholic. The pope has numerous times spoken out against socialism and its most destructive form, Communism. To claim that Jesus was a socialist is not only incorrect...it's flat-out ignorant.

Now, how society is to achieve maximum social welfare, is up for debate. Clearly we cannot eliminate all government organized/funded social welfare programs, but opposing some of these programs' basics tenets (a la American Conservatism) is not anti-Catholic. It's a difference of opinion. The basic difference between Conservatives and Liberals in the U.S., however, is the simple fact that Conservatives believe in OBJECTIVE, MORAL TRUTH...something liberals can certainly NOT claim. Abortion, Euthanasia, Passing out Condoms in school, and just about every other Anti-Catholic aspect of this pervasive culture of death are now SUPPORTED and CONDONED by your liberal, convoluted theories. Open your eyes and realize that it's not Conservatism that's plainly anti-Catholic...it's the ridiculous, nonsensical liberal drivel.

Here you are being unquestionably hypocritical. It is not okay for the government to enforce the morality of charity, but is IS okay for the government to enforce the morality of not using contraception? I can understand abortion. But contraception is a matter of faith. It has nothing to do with murder. You are saying the government can enforce SOME unneeded morality, such as things that are of the Catholic Church (Abortion, capital punishment, contraception) but not things that mean helping poor people?

For some reason, that doesn't make sense.

And I'll have you know that the government does not recognize fetuses and human beings, therefor, in that sense, they are moral to kill.

The Catholic Church teaches different, and I AM pro-life. But I also recognize the fact that I cannot prove fetuses have souls.

I cannot prove fetuses are human beings.

Trust me, many people have tried, but all have been found wanting.

What you're saying is that because the Pope is an anti-communist, that I should be too? Since when did the Pope have the right to tell me what to believe that has nothing to do with morals? If I supported Stalin, a MURDERER, it's a different story, but to say that because you are a marxist, (and a marxist that advocates peace, tolerance, and everything pro-catholic)you are not following Catholicism is just plain idiocy.

By the way, I'm not a marxist.

Democratic Socialist.

Anyway, another point I'd like to make is that Jesus stressed the need for charity. Individual charity and collective charity are different, you say. But why? All a collective is is a group of individuals united by a place, ethnicity, belief, etc. You get what I'm saying. Jesus was stressing that ALL people practice charity. ALL people belong to one and more collectives, depending on how you look at it.

Are taxes for medicare, welfare, social security involuntary? You bet.

Is this the will of the collective? Apparently, if people keep paying them and no one removes them.

I stand even more firmly in my statement, Jesus was a socialist.

in fact, just to stress my point:

JESUS, THE CHRIST, OUR SAVIOUR, WAS A SOCIALIST.

Edited December 29, 2003 by Hazilloe

[hyperdulia again]

Do you think the social teachings can be reduced to giving to charity??

The social teachings of the Bride of Christ are absolutely mind-boggling in their depth and the diversity of concerns expressed. Don't try and make the Catholic Church hold to some secular philosophy, She's much deeper tahn that. It goes beyond all of these delightful labels people throw around.

Be Catholic, nevermind this ridiculous hobby of trying to make the Church fit into a man-made mold. God gave her Truth in its fullness and she can't be pigeonholed.

[hyperdulia again]

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST AND CHRIST HIMSELF CANNOT BE MADE TO FIT INTO SILLY SECULAR POLITICAL MOLDS, TRY AS WE MIGHT WE LL NOT SUCCEED. I'M SICK OF PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE LIBERAL THAN THEY ARE CATHOLIC AND OF PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN THEY ARE CATHOLIC.

[Hazilloe]

i absolutely do not think the social teachings can be reduced to that.

and never did i say that.

Be Catholic, nevermind this ridiculous hobby of trying to make the Church fit into a man-made mold

never did i do that either. i simply stated that Jesus was a socialist, which, by definition, He was.

[hyperdulia again]

that was a respons to trying2bfaithful.

[Hazilloe]

oh, i apologize.