Leaving The Blood Out Until After Mass

[Sojourner]

I might even devote a special section of the site to provide people with resources in case they are subject to these abuses.

dUSt,

Maybe this should go in the feedback section, but I would LOVE it if you did something like this. I've seen a few questionable things at church -- more at churches I've visited than my home parish -- but it would be great to have a sounding board dedicated to questions along those lines.

:thumb:

[Circle_Master]

sorry you can delete this, went through by accident **

Edited December 30, 2003 by Circle_Master

[Circle_Master]

You and Bruce both say that God can command the Israelites to form images to go along with the ark of the covenant and not break the commandment against making graven images. So, can not Christ command us to eat His body and drink His blood and not be breaking the commandments?

I believe images can be made. Images of 'spiritual' nature would be a no however, and images to be worshipped a no. An image much of the time for that period was a household idol for different purposes, it probably is dealing with that. I would not make an image of God, or attempt to either. That may be more from respect than anything though. About eating Christ's body and drinking His blood, Scripture seems pretty adamant about the restrictions on drinking blood. Even the apostolic church was against it, so if they really thought the wine turned into Christ's blood they were really (at least it seems to me) contradicting themselves. Here is the passage showing the apostolic churches conclusion -

This is from Acts 15:19-20

"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from that is strangled and from blood.

and that is probably based off of....

Genesis 9:4

"Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. "

Leviticus 3:17

'It is a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you shall not eat any fat or any blood.'"

Leviticus 17:10

'And any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. '

Deuteronomy 12:16, 23

"Only you shall not eat the blood; you are to pour it out on the ground like water. ---- "Only be sure not to eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.

Deuteronomy 15:23

"Only you shall not eat its blood; you are to pour it out on the ground like water.

1 Samuel 14:33

Then they told Saul, saying, "Behold, the people are sinning against the LORD by eating with the blood." And he said, "You have acted treacherously; roll a great stone to me today."

And no, I wouldn't eat rare meat, that is one thing I won't do. I won't drink blood, or eat food with the blood in it (at least knowingly)

[Janana8706]

Secondly, the first two reading were from Cycle A, and the Gospel reading was from Cycle C.

I'm not positive, but i'm pretty sure my church used readings from A then gospel from C. Cuz i was following along and all and then all of a sudden they jumped to C, so i think thats how it was suposed to b lol. The readings might not have ben from A, but i know the gospel was.

[Circle_Master]

I would like a reply to the command not to drink blood. Is it considered ok because it is God's? Or because it isn't blood when you start? I'm sure there has been a ruling on that, well at least hopefully.

[foundsheep]

John Chapter 6

scroll down to verse 53 through 66

[Circle_Master]

yep. Then read Luke 22 verses 14 through 23. Then go back to verse 19 and read the end of it. After that go back to verse 15 and find the word starting with P. oh, alright, I'll answer it. Passover. Then go back into the OT and look where Passover came from and why Christ might have done this then. Ahh, everything starts to piece together.

Besides the point, I would like a Catholic rebuttal to the command not to drink blood.

[foundsheep]

Im gonna start with this.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" (1 Cor. 10:16).

[Circle_Master]

That's a good passage. I would have to go down to 1 Cor 10:21 which says "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

It seems that both of the cups are being compared in some way.

v16 "The cup of blessing ... is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?"

v16 "The bread ................ is it not a participation in the body of Christ? "

v18 "are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?"

v19 "What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?" (i.e. do you really think I imply these idols are alive as Christ is?)

v22 "You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

Therefore at the least it says that the cup and bread show who you are worshipping. To say that they are real because of this would imply possibly that the offering to idols is really the idol as well. No one would think this however, and would understand it to be an offering. That may be stretching the illustration a little Paul uses, but it does put a nice emphasis on "what are you worshipping by action?"

[inDEED]

dUSt...

Thanks for making the point about consuming the Precious Blood...

It is NEVER to be "poured out". IT MUST BE CONSUMED! Period!

[foundsheep]

First , Lets post the whole thing before discussion can happen. Highlighting both of ours.

16

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

17

Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

18

Look at Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?

19

So what am I saying? That meat sacrificed to idols is anything? Or that an idol is anything?

20

No, I mean that what they sacrifice, (they sacrifice) to demons, 8 not to God, and I do not want you to become participants with demons.

21

You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons.

22

Or are we provoking the Lord to jealous anger? Are we stronger than he?

23

9 "Everything is lawful," but not everything is beneficial. 10 "Everything is lawful," but not everything builds up.

24

No one should seek his own advantage, but that of his neighbor.

25

11 Eat anything sold in the market, without raising questions on grounds of conscience,

26

for "the earth and its fullness are the Lord's."

27

If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is placed before you, without raising questions on grounds of conscience.

28

But if someone says to you, "This was offered in sacrifice," do not eat it on account of the one who called attention to it and on account of conscience;

29

I mean not your own conscience, but the other's. For why should my freedom be determined by someone else's conscience?

30

If I partake thankfully, why am I reviled for that over which I give thanks?

31

So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God.

32

12 Avoid giving offense, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God,

33

just as I try to please everyone in every way, not seeking my own benefit but that of the many, that they may be save

[foundsheep]

dUSt...

Thanks for making the point about consuming the Precious Blood...

It is NEVER to be "poured out". IT MUST BE CONSUMED! Period!

I got that from my church today. gracias everyone, now I know. And knowing is half the battle. :lol:

[foundsheep]

That's a good passage. I would have to go down to 1 Cor 10:21 which says "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

It seems that both of the cups are being compared in some way.

v16 "The cup of blessing ... is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?"

v16 "The bread ................ is it not a participation in the body of Christ? "

v18 "are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?"

v19 "What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?" (i.e. do you really think I imply these idols are alive as Christ is?)

v22 "You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

Therefore at the least it says that the cup and bread show who you are worshipping. To say that they are real because of this would imply possibly that the offering to idols is really the idol as well. No one would think this however, and would understand it to be an offering. That may be stretching the illustration a little Paul uses, but it does put a nice emphasis on "what are you worshipping by action?"

Because we believe Jesus is present in the Eucharist, we are not worshiping Bread and Wine.

Now when I read this heres what I get:

especially from 10:21: Its like being a Sunday Christian. You cant do what you feel like all week and then show up to church and recieve like nothing happened. You cant have both to recieve worthily.

Ill add this:

Paul also said, "Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself" (1 Cor. 11:27, 29).

[Circle_Master]

ok, I could see a possible interpretation for both from that passage. But it still doesn't answer why a command adament through the old and new testament (see the acts verse in particular) was given, but not obeyed when it came to the eucharist. If they really did believe the eucharist to be Christ's blood they had to have a reason it .. transcended the other laws.

(i didn't mean to imply that you worshipped the eucharist before, just that what you did towards idols showed what you worshipped, i.e. God)

Edited December 31, 2003 by Circle_Master

[foundsheep]

With God,remember,anything is possible.