There is no salvation outside the church

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='975685' date='May 8 2006, 08:46 PM']
"I don't know that the Lord doesn't allow someone to remain in another ecclesial community, to accomplish his will there. Note I said "allow", and not will. God could allow someone to serve him as a Protestant, and to accomplish a greater good there, in his inscrutable wisdom."

I think this is very wrong. When someone is not doing the Lords will, he is doing wrong. He is offending God. He is damning himself. No good comes from evil, but from God.

" God will worry about their souls."

I think you should be very concerned about the sould of others as well...
[/quote]

We are very concerned about others souls, but we cannot judge other souls. No human is capable of deciding the outcome of another life. Its not us to us to decide if someone is doing God's will: I love how Father Mitch put it" we are in sales, not management".
Our job is to be the best shining light of God's love that we can be, the rest is up to the Lord. A protestant following God to the best his conscience tells him within God's laws is not a bad thing.

[Tarcisius]

"We should strive to bring all into the fullness of the Catholic Faith, but leave the judging of men's immortal souls to God."

Very True, but if Catholics do not realize that there prot friends are very truly most likley going to hell, as many saints have preached, a sense of urgency is lost. People become complacent, heck it even makes sense to not convert them, there very good prots, its easy to be a good prot, they might not make good Catholics, there going to get heaven if they dont change so why bother.

[cmotherofpirl]

Conversion is always best. However you don't convert people by telling they are going to hell. The Holy Spirit leads them while you are providing an example of a wonderful faith-filled loving [i]charitable[/i] Catholic.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='975685' date='May 8 2006, 08:46 PM']
I think this is very wrong. When someone is not doing the Lords will, he is doing wrong. He is offending God. He is damning himself. No good comes from evil, but from God.

" God will worry about their souls."

I think you should be very concerned about the sould of others as well...
[/quote]

A person who is following their conscience IS doing God's will, which is why the Church does not allow us to force the Christian faith on anyone, and why St. Thomas said it would be a sin for someone to profess faith in Christ when they have none.

That is not to say a conscience is necessarily correct. The best analogy would probably be a servant whose master wants things done a certain way, but he does not know this. By following the will of the master AS BEST HE KNOWS IT, he does not sin.

Our job is always to share our own understanding of the will of the master, but it is not for us to make judgements about other people's consciences. Assuming malice or willful ignorance is a sin, because it constitutes rash judgement. As I said before, we must respect people's conscience. Our job is to live our faith and bear witness. Anything beyond that is a usurpation of God's authority.

Being concerned for people's souls does not require judgement of their conscience. We are all on a journey, and we should respect where other people are on that journey. It shouldn't matter whether someone is invincibly ignorant or not. That is not our concern. Our duty is to live in Christ and share him with others. Beyond that, only God can enter the tribunal of conscience.

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='975701' date='May 8 2006, 09:00 PM']
but if Catholics do not realize that there prot friends are very truly most likley going to hell
[/quote]

You have no idea where people are going, and it is a sin to make such a statement.

Protestant Christians do not live as "heretics", as our Holy Father has noted, but as Christians not in full communion with the Church. Heresy is characterized by obstinacy, which is not present in most Protestant Christians.

You are speculating where you have no business speculating. Protestants are truly Christians, and the Church respects them as Christians. Not as people on their way to hell, but Christians with a positive relationship with Jesus Christ.

Your statement entirely misses the concept of conscience, which is not for us to judge or even to speculate on.

[Brother Adam]

Your insistance that "most Protestants are going to hell" makes as much sense as Dr. Bob's insistance that "99% of Catholics are going to hell. I believe both of you have totally missed the boat on God's mercy and love and have favored God's wrath. But this is a common trait among the ultra traditionalist that cease to understand changes in culture and what it means to be a "Protestant" as much as fundies don't have a clue to what the development of doctrine means. I don't get how you are verifying or proving that most go to hell. Rather, most are actively seeking the truth, and desire to be saved. Showing error to a Protestant is not easy, because they, like young Catholics, actually tend to believe their parents and community. Spread a lie around enough and people begin to believe it. Because the lie is mixed with truth "Trust in Jesus Christ by faith alone" makes it even more complicated. Unfortunately God is not in the habit of making personal phone calls or appearing on TV to clarify the issue, so discernment becomes an issue. To simply say "most Protestants go to hell because the 'truth is out there'" dismisses to many important factors at play, to which it seems the Magisterium understands.

[jasJis]

Tarcius,
You make me proud to have a non-Catholic label, though it saddens me to do so.

[son_of_angels]

One thing I would suggest is that while, yes, it is possible some Protestants may well go to heaven due to ignorance or other factors, nevertheless this is NOT a basis for true ecumenism. After all, when you base ecumenism on this it is claiming some kind of human superiority over the person with whom you are trying to dialogue.

Instead we need to base ecumenism on a desire to UNDERSTAND one another, to see, as Catholics, the ongoing work of the Spirit throughout the world, and to cooperate in common worldwide moral goals. We should be careful, however, to not cease our evangelistic efforts, of which the above are part, and to trust in the wisdom of God to execute final judgment.

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='975701' date='May 8 2006, 09:00 PM']
"We should strive to bring all into the fullness of the Catholic Faith, but leave the judging of men's immortal souls to God."

Very True, but if Catholics do not realize that there prot friends are very truly most likley going to hell, as many saints have preached, a sense of urgency is lost. People become complacent, heck it even makes sense to not convert them, there very good prots, its easy to be a good prot, they might not make good Catholics, there going to get heaven if they dont change so why bother.
[/quote]

Aww, I love you too Tarcisius (isn't he a martyr?). Based on your Catholic theology, I can say that I don't believe active membership in your church is necessary for salvation. I wouldn't say I'm rejecting "the fact" that it is necessary. I don't see it as fact. And if I could be convinced otherwise, I'd be happy to be so. I have a concern for my salvation and desire to be saved.

[AngelofJesus]

So even though the protestant knows full well the truth of catholicism they are not condemed to hell for not converting? What if the Holy Spirit is leading them to convert but they hold firm to being protestant only becaue of their fear of repudiation from their friends and family? Given that this said person fully lives God's laws.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='975821' date='May 9 2006, 12:44 AM']
So even though the protestant knows full well the truth of catholicism they are not condemed to hell for not converting? What if the Holy Spirit is leading them to convert but they hold firm to being protestant only becaue of their fear of repudiation from their friends and family? Given that this said person fully lives God's laws.
[/quote]

I think the point is they don't know full well the truth of Catholicism. Even if they know some doctrines they probably don't understand them and think that they are heretical. I know I did. It took what, three years on phatmass and talking to other friends to break me? It took a complete and total reorientation of my worldview.

Edited May 9, 2006 by Brother Adam

[frozencell]

Bro Adam,

I'm glad to see you made the switch. And, man, good ol' Bob. I haven't had th pleasure of talking to him for quite a while now. It takes forever to get a new password and screen name for BB these days.

Just because you know what the CC teaches doesn't mean you personally are convicted that it is the truth. Therefore, you are not rejecting anything really. But if you are just holding out on the CC because you don't want your friends and family to make fun of you or give you a hard time is something completely different, I think. My family (especially my mom) gave me hell about it. That didn't stop me though.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='frozencell' post='975896' date='May 9 2006, 03:27 AM']
Bro Adam,

I'm glad to see you made the switch. And, man, good ol' Bob. I haven't had th pleasure of talking to him for quite a while now. It takes forever to get a new password and screen name for BB these days.

Just because you know what the CC teaches doesn't mean you personally are convicted that it is the truth. Therefore, you are not rejecting anything really. But if you are just holding out on the CC because you don't want your friends and family to make fun of you or give you a hard time is something completely different, I think. My family (especially my mom) gave me hell about it. That didn't stop me though.
[/quote]

I didn't quite understand my mom. She wasn't Catholic, but as long as I wasn't Baptist, just about anything was A-OK with her lol. But haha. Jokes on her. Now she attends mass every sunday and is on the road home.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='975824' date='May 8 2006, 09:47 PM']
I think the point is they don't know full well the truth of Catholicism. Even if they know some doctrines they probably don't understand them and think that they are heretical. I know I did. It took what, three years on phatmass and talking to other friends to break me? It took a complete and total reorientation of my worldview.
[/quote]


Yes.

Eph.4
[23] and be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
Col.3
[10] and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Rom.12
[2] Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Those outside the Church do not think like a Catholic. Even Protestant Christians.

They are at a severe disadvantage in understanding because they do not have the shepherds that God has given us in our bishops.

Jer.3
[15] "`And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding

Thus it is quite possible they are in true ignorance. We plant seeds in them that hopefully will grow in to an acceptance and understanding of the faith. But God makes the seeds grow (I planted, apollos watered, but the Lord made it grow) by his grace. We cannot judge what grace he has given to make this happen. Though it is concerning that he "desires that all men be saved and COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH". Thus it would seem that he would give all the grace to come to the truth.

Edited May 9, 2006 by thessalonian