AngelofJesus Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 How does one qualify to be invincibly ignorant? How would you define invincible ignorance? 1. Person A is christian and has heard of the Catholic church but does not nor is willing to investigate what it is about? 2. Person B is christian but has never heard of the Catholic church? 3. Person C is not christian but has heard of the Catholic church but does not nor is willing to investigate what it is about? 4. Person D is not christian and has never heard of the Catholic church? 5. Person E is christian and has heard of the catholic church and has investigated but has no idea what Catholic church is talking about? 6. Person F is not christion and has heard of the catholic church and has investigated but has no idea what Catholic church is talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franimus Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 (edited) my opinions: [quote name='AngelofJesus' post='975361' date='May 8 2006, 12:28 PM'] How does one qualify to be invincibly ignorant? How would you define invincible ignorance? 1. Person A is christian and has heard of the Catholic church but does not nor is willing to investigate what it is about?[/quote] Depends on what they heard; whether they heard good stuff or bad stuff [quote] 2. Person B is christian but has never heard of the Catholic church?[/quote] sure [quote] 3. Person C is not christian but has heard of the Catholic church but does not nor is willing to investigate what it is about?[/quote] see A [quote] 4. Person D is not christian and has never heard of the Catholic church?[/quote] sure [quote] 5. Person E is christian and has heard of the catholic church and has investigated but has no idea what Catholic church is talking about?[/quote] can they help it if noone's going to help them understand what they heard? [quote] 6. Person F is not christion and has heard of the catholic church and has investigated but has no idea what Catholic church is talking about? [/quote] see E My belief: Basically, they're not going to be condemned for something that is not their fault. Edit: Forgot to mention, what I've come to understand "no salvation outside the Church" means: that something that comes from outside the church does not save us; only stuff that comes from inside the church helps save us. Edited May 8, 2006 by Franimus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick777 Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Someone who is Christian or non-Christian, has investigated the Catholic Church and all her teachings, fully comprehends them but still rejects them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Someone who is Christian or non-Christian, has investigated the Catholic Church and all her teachings, fully comprehends them but still rejects them? I would add and finds the arguments contradictory.. but that gets into a can of worms I'm not prepared to start, nor do I surmise anyone else would take the time to fully and honestly reply anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Dairy, we do hope you will only get the light beating. This doctrine of II is most certainly Biblical. Luke 12 40] You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour." [41] Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" [42] And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? [43] Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. [44] Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. [45] But if that servant says to himself, `My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, [46] the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. [47] And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. [48] But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarcisius Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I think it is almost impossible to be invinciblly ignorant in this world. Unless your one of the very few who are trapped in remote places or have been completely blocked from all acess to ever finding the church you are not invinciblly ignorant. God gives every person the ability to the find the Church. Claiming that a prot is invin ignorant because his whole family told him error all his life or something is naive i think. Every person finds the truth if they truly seek it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 [quote name='Tarcisius' post='975439' date='May 8 2006, 12:55 PM'] I think it is almost impossible to be invinciblly ignorant in this world. Unless your one of the very few who are trapped in remote places or have been completely blocked from all acess to ever finding the church you are not invinciblly ignorant. God gives every person the ability to the find the Church. Claiming that a prot is invin ignorant because his whole family told him error all his life or something is naive i think. Every person finds the truth if they truly seek it.[/quote]You're probably right in YOUR version of the Catholic Church. I do believe a man who used to be known as Cardinal Ratzinger would emphatically disagree with you. I base that opinion on reading Dominus Iesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Invincible ignorance is an element of conscience. Only God can judge a person's conscience. There is no way to say "This person has heard about Catholicism, so they can't be ignorant", because conscience is not synonomous with knowledge. Conscience is a very personal tribunal that convicts and encourages man. We should respect everyone's conscience, and not assume malice or willful ignorance on their part. And we should work always to make Our Lord and his Church better understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 hearing and truly understanding are two different things, however you cut it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarcisius Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 do you not think it possible that given the neverending generosity of the Lord that he does in fact give the grace to know the truth when it is heard to everyone and that those who not believe choose not believe. Its a very hard thing to honestly seek the truth, it takes alot more than saying ok im looking for the truth, many times people dont try very hard to seek the truth, which is there responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozencell Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 This subject is never really as cut and dry I think some people hear are trying to make it. The Bible states that no man can truly know the heart of another. Only God can know that and I think that deals directly with this topic. Yes, God is all-knowing and all-loving, but that does not exclude someone hearing about the Catholic Church and then rejecting it. That doesn't mean that person is making a consciuous decision to do wrong or evil, they very well may believe that they are living up to the utmost truth that they have found to be true for them. As Catholicism is the "most whole" truth, remember that the rules for salvation are pretty universal. Accept and believe that Jesus died for our sins, live in a complimentary and holy manner, and always try to serve and glorify the Lord in everything you do. By these guidelines, a non-Catholic can live a good life for God and still be "saved". I do agree that the term "no salvation outside the Church" speaks of the things the Church offers helping salvation. I think that being Catholic is being as "right" as you can be spiritually, but heaven is not Catholic-exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 (edited) That's sort of a good point that God would ensure all to come to know this theoretical truth. But your notion cannot be only that someone does a lot of research and then by the grace of God knows the truth to accept or reject. It would have to be first by the grace of God they begin to search for the truth and then choose. Because do you put a lot of effort into studying Islam? You shouldn't expect a Muslim to examine possibly doing a 180 if you yourself won't entertain that. That is, unless you think the grace of God would not compel you to search but would a Muslim. Edited May 9, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 [quote name='Tarcisius' post='975558' date='May 8 2006, 06:00 PM'] do you not think it possible that given the neverending generosity of the Lord that he does in fact give the grace to know the truth when it is heard to everyone and that those who not believe choose not believe. Its a very hard thing to honestly seek the truth, it takes alot more than saying ok im looking for the truth, many times people dont try very hard to seek the truth, which is there responsibility. [/quote] I don't know what the Lord does. As Father Mitch Pacwa likes to say, "I'm in sales, not management". I don't know that the Lord doesn't allow someone to remain in another ecclesial community, to accomplish his will there. Note I said "allow", and not will. God could allow someone to serve him as a Protestant, and to accomplish a greater good there, in his inscrutable wisdom. That's not my business. My business is to be faithful to what my conscience leads me to believe, and to share that faith with others. God will worry about their souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 We should strive to bring all into the fullness of the Catholic Faith, but leave the judging of men's immortal souls to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarcisius Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 "I don't know that the Lord doesn't allow someone to remain in another ecclesial community, to accomplish his will there. Note I said "allow", and not will. God could allow someone to serve him as a Protestant, and to accomplish a greater good there, in his inscrutable wisdom." I think this is very wrong. When someone is not doing the Lords will, he is doing wrong. He is offending God. He is damning himself. No good comes from evil, but from God. " God will worry about their souls." I think you should be very concerned about the sould of others as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now