Guest :: Setsuna :: Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Until I can check email of officialy registering here ((school doesnt permit emails)) Im here to point out random things/ask questions. Monotheism is what Christianity/Catholosism/Etc. believes in. Yet they also believe in a 3 in one diety. Which for a fact resembles the three in one God/Goddess aspect of most pagan beliefs. Let alone we know quite well, or the basis of, the crusades and conversion of many pagan beliefs into Christian form. A three in one aspect relates to polytheism does it not? "Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one." Galations 3:20 God is only one, their is no plural or indication of another part of him. “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. Give us today our bread for this day..." Matthew 6:9-11 "Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. " John 17:1-3 "and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” Acts 7:56 I could list countless more scriptures that indicate God and Jesus are serpate entities and not a whole. Jesus would not pray to himself while on earth, he would not consol himself, nor could he be the Son of God by any means if he Were God or an aspect of God. I would also like to point out that Jesus is referred to as the Son Of God and not God The Son. Also, though I dont have enough time to look up the scripture to quote exactly what is said, Gods holy spirit is his active force. When it was said that God poured holy spirit into someone, he was not putting Himself into that person. So basicly to gather this together; How is one to believe in the trinity when contradiction occurs between what is said in the bible and the strain of someone telling you so? In my opinion, as I should say alot of this is since I know someone will counter what I think is utterly true, the bible justifies alot; rebuking the trinity entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franimus Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Judaism is monotheistic, would you agree on that part? Christianity is merely the fulfillment of Judaism, and we understand from Jesus' preaching (through what the Apostles also handed down to us) that yes, they are three separate persons, but they are one God. One way to think about Jesus praying is that it's like telling your fingers to type or something (Also keep in mind that Jesus was 100% human in addition to 100% divine (two natures in one person), so his human nature prays just like the rest of us). Jesus also said that a man and his wife are "one flesh," but you don't see couples walking around physically joined. They are, however, one in spirit. They do still talk to one another, but they are joined. Perhaps someone who's actually married can explain it better, but from what I've heard, the Trinity is similiar to a marriage. You do seem to acknowledge the three-in-one concept which we believe. Three persons in one God, neither three persons in three gods, nor one person in one god. Note the distinction I am making between persons and natures. The person is the who of someone, and the nature is the what; We are all ourselves, and we are humans, our personhood and our nature. Jesus is one person, Jesus, but with two natures (and wills): human and divine (hence his human nature prayed "your will be done"). The Trinity is three persons, Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit, all sharing the same nature and will. Know also that it is a mystery of our faith; that since we are not dieties we cannot fully understand it; but we can still do our best to try. It is not a contradiction in the Bible, but the Bible is merely affirming our belief in the Trinity by trying (in poor words, and poor translations also) to explain this three-in-one concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 [quote name=':: Setsuna ::' post='975148' date='May 8 2006, 02:32 PM'] Until I can check email of officialy registering here ((school doesnt permit emails)) Im here to point out random things/ask questions. Monotheism is what Christianity/Catholosism/Etc. believes in. Yet they also believe in a 3 in one diety. Which for a fact resembles the three in one God/Goddess aspect of most pagan beliefs. Let alone we know quite well, or the basis of, the crusades and conversion of many pagan beliefs into Christian form. A three in one aspect relates to polytheism does it not? "Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one." Galations 3:20 God is only one, their is no plural or indication of another part of him. “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. Give us today our bread for this day..." Matthew 6:9-11 "Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. " John 17:1-3 "and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” Acts 7:56 I could list countless more scriptures that indicate God and Jesus are serpate entities and not a whole. Jesus would not pray to himself while on earth, he would not consol himself, nor could he be the Son of God by any means if he Were God or an aspect of God. I would also like to point out that Jesus is referred to as the Son Of God and not God The Son. Also, though I dont have enough time to look up the scripture to quote exactly what is said, Gods holy spirit is his active force. When it was said that God poured holy spirit into someone, he was not putting Himself into that person. So basicly to gather this together; How is one to believe in the trinity when contradiction occurs between what is said in the bible and the strain of someone telling you so? In my opinion, as I should say alot of this is since I know someone will counter what I think is utterly true, the bible justifies alot; rebuking the trinity entirely. [/quote] Contradictions? Where? [quote]Behold a virgin shall concieve and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us"--[b]Mt 1:23[/b][/quote] It would be hard for Christ to be God with us if He weren't really God. Indeed the gospels would be incredibly incoherent as they make bold claims like: [quote]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, full of grace and truth; we beheld his glory, glory as the only Son from the Father--[b]Jn 1:1 & 14[/b][/quote] Passages like the following would have to be viewed as unforgivable blasphemies: [quote]Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"--[b]Jn 20:27-28[/b][/quote] Never mind such a brazen declaration as this: [quote]Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am--[b]Jn 8:58[/b][/quote] Indeed the entire Christian edifice would be built upon wicked idolatry placing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit on par: [quote]Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit--[b]Mt 28:19[/b][/quote] Now I'm sure other people will get involved in this thread and I would be very surprise for instance if Phatcatholic didnt provide a host of scriptural citations supporting the Divinity of Christ--Nick thats your cue . I'd do it myself but I'm about to chow down to some awesome Duck noodles and shredded beef. Ummmmmm. In the meantime you may want to read [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3202038.htm"]Letter 38[/url] of St Basil the Great, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2905.htm"]"On Not Three Gods"[/url] by St Gregory of Nyssa and St Gregory Nazianzen's [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310229.htm"]Third Theological Oration.[/url] Bless... Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReinnieR Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 [quote name='Myles Domini' post='975416' date='May 8 2006, 01:22 PM'] Contradictions? Where? It would be hard for Christ to be God with us if He weren't really God. Indeed the gospels would be incredibly incoherent as they make bold claims like: Passages like the following would have to be viewed as unforgivable blasphemies: Never mind such a brazen declaration as this: Indeed the entire Christian edifice would be built upon wicked idolatry placing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit on par: Now I'm sure other people will get involved in this thread and I would be very surprise for instance if Phatcatholic didnt provide a host of scriptural citations supporting the Divinity of Christ--Nick thats your cue . I'd do it myself but I'm about to chow down to some awesome Duck noodles and shredded beef. Ummmmmm. In the meantime you may want to read [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3202038.htm"]Letter 38[/url] of St Basil the Great, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2905.htm"]"On Not Three Gods"[/url] by St Gregory of Nyssa and St Gregory Nazianzen's [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310229.htm"]Third Theological Oration.[/url] Bless... Myles [/quote] i almost linked your blog. but glad that you're here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Read [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300001711/sr=1-1/qid=1147187126/ref=sr_1_1/002-2421473-3299210?%5Fencoding=UTF8"]The Problem of God[/url], by John Courtney Murray, SJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 [quote name='Raphael' post='976051' date='May 9 2006, 12:07 PM'] Read [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300001711/sr=1-1/qid=1147187126/ref=sr_1_1/002-2421473-3299210?%5Fencoding=UTF8"]The Problem of God[/url], by John Courtney Murray, SJ. [/quote] Or the Discovery of God by de Lubac. Did ya' read it like you were suppose to Micah : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 A full understanding of the Trinity is not possible. Saints have struggled mightily with the idea. But God is infinite and we are finite so we will not posess the intellect to wrap our noodle around the truth of "Three persons, one God". However it would be arrogant for us to say "Well if we can't figure it out, it can't happen". (I'm not saying that you are being arrogant. I'm speaking of us as a human race) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelofJesus Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 [quote name=':: Setsuna ::' post='975148' date='May 8 2006, 06:32 AM'] Until I can check email of officialy registering here ((school doesnt permit emails)) Im here to point out random things/ask questions. Monotheism is what Christianity/Catholosism/Etc. believes in. Yet they also believe in a 3 in one diety. Which for a fact resembles the three in one God/Goddess aspect of most pagan beliefs. Let alone we know quite well, or the basis of, the crusades and conversion of many pagan beliefs into Christian form. A three in one aspect relates to polytheism does it not? "Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one." Galations 3:20 God is only one, their is no plural or indication of another part of him. “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. Give us today our bread for this day..." Matthew 6:9-11 "Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. " John 17:1-3 "and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” Acts 7:56 I could list countless more scriptures that indicate God and Jesus are serpate entities and not a whole. Jesus would not pray to himself while on earth, he would not consol himself, nor could he be the Son of God by any means if he Were God or an aspect of God. I would also like to point out that Jesus is referred to as the Son Of God and not God The Son. Also, though I dont have enough time to look up the scripture to quote exactly what is said, Gods holy spirit is his active force. When it was said that God poured holy spirit into someone, he was not putting Himself into that person. So basicly to gather this together; How is one to believe in the trinity when contradiction occurs between what is said in the bible and the strain of someone telling you so? In my opinion, as I should say alot of this is since I know someone will counter what I think is utterly true, the bible justifies alot; rebuking the trinity entirely. [/quote] That is a very LDS looking argument, in which, they also cannot reconcile a few passages in the bible. For instance: [quote]I am the Lord your God, thou shall not have other gods before Me.[/quote] He did not say We are your Gods. He is only one. Furthermore [quote] The Gods of the Mormon Church George Orwell, in his novel 1984, did Catholic apologists a great favor by coining the term "doublethink," which he defined as "the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them." It’s the most succinct way of describing certain religious beliefs. For an illustration of doublethink one need look no further than the Mormon church’s doctrines about God. Joseph Smith, Mormonism’s founder, taught the doctrine of a "plurality of gods"—polytheism—as the bedrock belief of his church. He developed this doctrine over a period of years to reflect his belief that not only are there many gods, but they once were mortal men who had developed in righteousness until they had learned enough and merited godhood. The Mormon church uses the term "eternal progression" for this process, and it refers to godhood as "exaltation." Such euphemisms are used because the idea of men becoming gods is blasphemous to orthodox Christians. Needless to say, Smith encountered much hostility to these doctrines and so thought it wise to disguise them with unfamiliar terminology. Although he softened his terms, Smith minced no words in explaining his beliefs. "I will preach on the plurality of gods. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (King Follett Discourse). Mormonism’s founder concluded that his flock didn’t understand the nature of God. No mortal entirely does, of course, but this particular group was handicapped, not helped, by the strange theories expounded by Smith. True to his word, Smith took away the veil of misunderstanding, only to replace it with a monolithic wall of doublethink. After all, to teach that the all-sovereign God, the infinite and supreme being, the Creator and Master of the universe, is merely an exalted man is a fine example of what Orwell had in mind. [i]Catholic Answers[/i][/quote] You can read more of it here. [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Gods_of_the_Mormon_Church.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Gods_of_th...rmon_Church.asp[/url] Courtesy of PhatCatholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 [quote name=':: Setsuna ::' post='975148' date='May 8 2006, 09:32 AM'] How is one to believe in the trinity when contradiction occurs between what is said in the bible and the strain of someone telling you so? In my opinion, as I should say alot of this is since I know someone will counter what I think is utterly true, the bible justifies alot; rebuking the trinity entirely. [/quote] You make some very valid points. The Church says that you should follow what you believe to be true, but at the same time you have a responsibility to seek out what is true and listen to many sides... which I am guessing you are doing by posting here. There are no contradictions in Scripture, however there are contradictions in man's interpretation of Scripture. Here is the Catechism page that will help explain it... [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p2.htm[/url] Here is a small snippet of that page, but please take the time to read the entire page... [quote][b]The dogma of the Holy Trinity[/b] [b]253 [/b] The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity."83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85 [b]254 [/b] The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father," "Son," "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune. [b]255 [/b] The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91 [b]256 [/b] St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian," entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople: Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down . . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God . . . the three considered together. . . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . . .92[/quote] Here are some audio links in Real Audio format that I think will help explain it well... Persons of the Trinity [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=iq_gj30.ra&source=frmselectseries.asp&seriesID=&T1=trinity"]http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1...sID=&T1=trinity[/url] THE 4TH Century – Augustine & Athanasius [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=dof02.ra&source=frmselectseries.asp&seriesID=&T1=trinity"]http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1...sID=&T1=trinity[/url] Most Holy Trinity [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=fftoday05.ra&source=frmselectseries.asp&seriesID=&T1=trinity"]http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1...sID=&T1=trinity[/url] Approaches to the Trinity w/Scott Hahn [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=firstcomeslove11.ra&source=frmselectseries.asp&seriesID=&T1=trinity"]http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1...sID=&T1=trinity[/url] God Bless and thank you for coming here and asking... ironmonk ---------------------------------------------------------------- After seeing AOJ's post here is some more audio that you might find interesting... From Mormon to Catholic (Keith & Michelle Campbell) [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=iq_488.ra&source=frmselectseries.asp&seriesID=&T1=mormon%20to%20catholic"]http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1...20to%20catholic[/url] From Mormon to Catholic (The Journey Home) [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=jh_57a.ra&source=frmselectseries.asp&seriesID=&T1=mormon%20to%20catholic"]http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1...20to%20catholic[/url] God Bless in your studies, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 A little more on the Trinity... From the first 300 years of Christian writings.... [b]The Letter of Barnabas[/b] "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, ‘Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,’ understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5 [A.D. 74] emphasis added). [b]Hermas[/b] "The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that he became the Father’s adviser in his creation. Therefore also he is ancient" (The Shepherd 12 [A.D. 80]). [b]Ignatius of Antioch[/b] (Pupil of Saint John of the Gospel... thought to be the child held up by Christ when Christ said "Blessed be the children".) "Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him" (Letter to the Magnesians 6–8 [A.D. 110] emphasis added). [b]Justin Martyr[/b] "God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness.’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62 [A.D. 155]). [b]Polycarp of Smyrna[/b] "I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 [A.D. 155] emphasis added). [b]Mathetes[/b] "[The Father] sent the Word that he might be manifested to the world. . . . This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old. . . . This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son" (Letter to Diognetus 11 [A.D. 160] emphasis added). [b]Irenaeus[/b] "It was not angels, therefore, who made us nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor anyone else. . . . For God did not stand in need of these in order to accomplish what he had himself determined with himself beforehand should be done, as if he did not possess his own hands. For with him [the Father] were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, he made all things, to whom also he speaks, saying, ‘Let us make man in our image and likeness’ [Gen. 1:26]" (Against Heresies 4:20:1 [A.D. 189] emphasis added). [b]Tertullian[/b] "While keeping to this demurrer always, there must, nevertheless, be place for reviewing for the sake of the instruction and protection of various persons. Otherwise it might seem that each perverse opinion is not examined but simply prejudged and condemned. This is especially so in the case of the present heresy [Sabellianism], which considers itself to have the pure truth when it supposes that one cannot believe in the one only God in any way other than by saying that Father, Son, and Spirit are the selfsame person. As if one were not all . . . through the unity of substance" (Against Praxeas 2:3–4 [A.D. 216]). "Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe, now, that I say the Father is other [distinct], and the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. . . . I say this, however, out of necessity, since they contend that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are the selfsame person" (ibid. 9:1). [b]Hippolytus[/b] "Thus, after the death of Zephyrinus, supposing that he had obtained [the position] after which he so eagerly pursued, he [Pope Callistus] excommunicated Sabellius, as not entertaining orthodox opinions" (Refutation of All Heresies 9:7 [A.D. 228]). [b]Novatian[/b] "[W]ho does not acknowledge that the person of the Son is second after the Father, when he reads that it was said by the Father, consequently to the Son, ‘Let us make man in our image and our likeness’ [Gen. 1:26]? Or when he reads [as having been said] to Christ: ‘Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten you. Ask of me, and I will give you the heathens for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession’ [Ps. 2:7–8]? Or when also that beloved writer says: ‘The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I shall make your enemies the stool of your feet’ [Ps. 110:1]? Or when, unfolding the prophecies of Isaiah, he finds it written thus: ‘Thus says the Lord to Christ my Lord’? Or when he reads: ‘I came not down from heaven to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me’ [John 6:38]? Or when he finds it written: ‘Because he who sent me is greater than I’ [cf. John 14:24, 28]? Or when he finds it placed side by side with others: ‘Moreover, in your law it is written that the witness of two is true. I bear witness of myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness of me’ [cf. John 8:17–18]?" (Treatise on the Trinity 26 [A.D. 235]). "And I should have enough to do were I to endeavor to gather together all the passages [of the kind in the previous quotation] . . . since the divine Scripture, not so much of the Old as also of the New Testament, everywhere shows him to be born of the Father, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made, who always has obeyed and obeys the Father; that he always has power over all things, but as delivered, as granted, as by the Father himself permitted to him. And what can be so evident proof that this is not the Father, but the Son; as that he is set forth as being obedient to God the Father, unless, if he be believed to be the Father, Christ may be said to be subjected to another God the Father?" (ibid.) [b]Pope Dionysius[/b] "Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the monarchy, the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it, as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. I have heard that some of your catechists and teachers of the divine Word take the lead in this tenet. They are, so to speak, diametrically opposed to the opinion of Sabellius. He, in his blasphemy, says that the Son is the Father and vice versa" (Letters of Pope Dionysius to Bishop Dionysius of Alexandria 1:1 [A.D. 262]). [b]Gregory the Wonderworker[/b] "But some treat the Holy Trinity in an awful manner, when they confidently assert that there are not three persons, and introduce (the idea of) a person devoid of subsistence. Wherefore we clear ourselves of Sabellius, who says that the Father and the Son are the same [person]. . . . We forswear this, because we believe that three persons—namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—are declared to possess the one Godhead: for the one divinity showing itself forth according to nature in the Trinity establishes the oneness of the nature" (A Sectional Confession of Faith 8 [A.D. 262]). "But if they say, ‘How can there be three persons, and how but one divinity?’ we shall make this reply: That there are indeed three persons, inasmuch as there is one person of God the Father, and one of the Lord the Son, and one of the Holy Spirit; and yet that there is but one divinity, inasmuch as . . . there is one substance in the Trinity" (ibid., 14). [b]Methodius[/b] "For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one. Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one deity in three persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreated, without end, and to which there is no successor. For neither will the Father ever cease to be the Father, nor again the Son to be the Son and King, nor the Holy Ghost to be what in substance and personality he is. For nothing of the Trinity will suffer diminution, either in respect of eternity, or of communion, or of sovereignty" (Oration on the Psalms 5 [A.D. 305]). [b]Athanasius[/b] "[The Trinity] is a Trinity not merely in name or in a figurative manner of speaking; rather, it is a Trinity in truth and in actual existence. Just as the Father is he that is, so also his Word is one that is and is God over all. And neither is the Holy Spirit nonexistent but actually exists and has true being. Less than these the Catholic Church does not hold, lest she sink to the level of the Jews of the present time, imitators of Caiaphas, or to the level of Sabellius" (Letters to Serapion 1:28 [A.D. 359]). "They [the Father and the Son] are one, not as one thing now divided into two, but really constituting only one, nor as one thing twice named, so that the same becomes at one time the Father and at another his own Son. This latter is what Sabellius held, and he was judged a heretic. On the contrary, they are two, because the Father is Father and is not his own Son, and the Son is Son and not his own Father" (Discourses Against the Arians 3:4 [A.D. 360]). [b]Fulgentius of Ruspe[/b] "See, in short you have it that the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit another; in person, each is other, but in nature they are not other. In this regard he [Christ] says, ‘The Father and I, we are one’ [John 10:30]. He teaches us that ‘one’ refers to their nature and ‘we are’ to their persons. In like manner it is said, ‘There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one’ [cf. 1 John 5:7]. Let Sabellius hear ‘we are,’ let him hear ‘three,’ and let him believe that there are three persons" (The Trinity 4:1 [A.D. 513]). GOd Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReinnieR Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote name=':: Setsuna ::' post='975148' date='May 8 2006, 08:32 AM'] Until I can check email of officialy registering here ((school doesnt permit emails)) Im here to point out random things/ask questions. Monotheism is what Christianity/Catholosism/Etc. believes in. Yet they also believe in a 3 in one diety. Which for a fact resembles the three in one God/Goddess aspect of most pagan beliefs. Let alone we know quite well, or the basis of, the crusades and conversion of many pagan beliefs into Christian form. A three in one aspect relates to polytheism does it not? "Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one." Galations 3:20 God is only one, their is no plural or indication of another part of him. “YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. Give us today our bread for this day..." Matthew 6:9-11 "Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. " John 17:1-3 "and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” Acts 7:56 I could list countless more scriptures that indicate God and Jesus are serpate entities and not a whole. Jesus would not pray to himself while on earth, he would not consol himself, nor could he be the Son of God by any means if he Were God or an aspect of God. I would also like to point out that Jesus is referred to as the Son Of God and not God The Son. Also, though I dont have enough time to look up the scripture to quote exactly what is said, Gods holy spirit is his active force. When it was said that God poured holy spirit into someone, he was not putting Himself into that person. So basicly to gather this together; How is one to believe in the trinity when contradiction occurs between what is said in the bible and the strain of someone telling you so? In my opinion, as I should say alot of this is since I know someone will counter what I think is utterly true, the bible justifies alot; rebuking the trinity entirely. [/quote] Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man [quote]He didn't openly. Our Lord was at some pains to conceal his divinity until the last stage of His ministry. Any open proclamation to Him before He had completed training His Apostles and disciples. In His early ministry He didn't use "Son of God" or "Messiah" of Himself because doing so might bring about His immediate trial. He did use "Son of Man" in reference to Himself because the average Jew of His time did not regard that title as a claim to be the Messiah. But His disciples and Zacchaeus could have understoodit that way. [i]Son of Man[/i] was used about a hundred times in seven books of the Jewish Scriptures but never as a specific title for the Messiah. In Hebrew it was [i]ben adam[/i], since [i]Adam[/i] is the name of the first man and [i]adam[/i] (without a capital letter [i]A[/i]) means all his descendants. Our Lord spoke in Aramaic, not Hebrew, and most of those who listened, I suppose, took it that He was using an idiom of that language. [i]Son of Man[/i] to them could have meant just "I" or "me." As you know, the same event or the same saying of our Lord is often included by more than one of the Gospel writers who tell the same story or event in diffent words. In the Beatitudes as given by Matthew (chapter 5) Jesus says "Blessed are you when men revile you...on account of me." IN Luke he says "Blessed are you when men...revile you...on account of the Son of M." There are many other instances in our Lord's speech when there seems to be no reason for using any title for Himself. "I" or "me" would serve just as well. The explanation that He was using an idiom of his Aramaic language seems likely enough. Most languages have similar expressions to avoid using "I" for one reason or another. "here's a man who will not vote that way" means "I will not vote taht way" and so on. There is also the circumstance that while Christ uses the tilte [i]Son of Man[/i] to mean Himself so often, other persons in the Gospels never use it as his title. ONe would think they would, if Jesus Himself was using it to indicate more than "I" or "me." There have been literally hundreds of books written on teh subject and not all of them are satisfied with saying that the title was just an idiom of the Lord's language. When you look at the Gospels more closely you can see that there were times when He used [i]Son of Man[/i] as more than just a substiture for "I" or "me." He uses it when He is telling about his future coming in judgement, when He is talking about establishing the Kingdom of God, and especially when He is speaking of the suffering He will endure in His Passion. These were actions only of the expected Messiah. Our conclusion must be that our Lord took an expression from the Scriptures and made a Messianic title of it. By using it He was proclaiming Himself the Messiah but not to everybody all at once. Those close to Him were brought gradually to a complete understanding of who He was and what He was claiming for Himself. His enemies could be left to think He was only using a synonym for "I" or "me." The Lord's plan did not include any ealry revalation of His Messiahship, lest as we saw, He be brought to trial too early. There was also the danger that popular enthusiasm might interfere wih Hes work of training and teaching. At least once He hid from the populace so that they would not force Him to be their king. This running away might seem to be a denial that He was entitled to be called a king, just as callhing Himself [i]Son of Man[/i] might seem to be a denial that He was the Son of God. But when the time came, He openly claimed kingship in the face of Pilate. Just before being hauled before Pilate he used [i]Son of Man[/i] to say he would be seated at the right hand of the power of God. His enemies asked if that meant he was the Son of God, and he used the same idiom he would use in answering Pilate’s question about being a king, “You say that I am.” This was the most solemn form of affirmation in his language. We have an approximation of in American slang, “You said it” meaning “you have spoken the absolute truth.” So the Lord at the time of his Passion was using the titles [i]Son of Man[/i] and [i]Son of God[/i] as equivalents. He tells the high priest “…you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Now it is obvious he was speaking of himself. What is not so obvious is the reference to Daniel’s vision of the Ancient of Days (God) before whom “with the clouds of heaven there came One like a Son of Man…And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away…” “Clouds of heaven” is the key expression. In the utterances and visions of the prophets, God was seen as appearing “with the clouds of heaven.” And, of course, he spoke out of a cloud to Moses in giving him the Ten Commandments, and in the desert went before the wandering Israelites as a pillar of cloud. Christ, by using the expression clouds of heaven while speaking of himself, claimed divinity and made a prophecy out of Daniel’s vision of the Ancient of Days and one like a “son of man.” By calling himself the “Son of Man,” he was claiming “everlasting dominion which shall not pass away.” To all understanding Jews, of course, such a dominion could be only that of the Messiah. There are other reasons why he used it. When you stop to think of it, those who witnessed his miracles and his risen life might rather logically come to the conclusion that he was not a man at all but God who had taken the outward appearance of a man as the angels did from time to time. As a matter of fact there was a heresy (Arianism) in the early Church to exactly that effect. By using Son of Man of himself habitually, Christ taught that he was ben adam, son of man, a member of mankind, one of us, not just a mythical visiting god like the pagans believed of some of their deities. He reinforced this teaching every time he used [i]Son of Man[/i] of himself when predicting his Passion and identifying himself with the Suffering Servant of God written about by the prophet Isaiah. After the Transfiguration He asked “…how is it that it is written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and be treated with contempt?” St. Peter, St. James, and St. John after that experience might well forget that he was anything but God, but the Lord reminded them of his humanity, along with the warning not to speak yet of this vision they had. A final reason for our Lord’s use of the term [i]Son of Man[/i] was surely to teach his followers that his life and sacrifice for all humanity. He was not just a son of David or Abraham but of Adam, from whom the whole human race sprang. He was a member of that race and for that race he lived and died.[/quote] Catholic Questions Catholic Answers Fr. Kenneth Ryan ISBN 0-89283-663-6 the trinity [quote] II. God is One in Three Divine Persons Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155). "[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen." Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157). "For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, 'Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;' He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,20:1 (A.D. 180). "And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coequal with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called governing principle' (arche), because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.' And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'" Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, II:10 (c. A.D. 181). "In the course of time, then, the Father forsooth was born, and the Father suffered, God Himself, the Lord Almighty, whom in their preaching they declare to be Jesus Christ. We, however, as we indeed always have done and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her--being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics, much more before Praxeas, a pretender of yesterday, will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies, and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas." Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 2 (post A.D. 213). "Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when (extolling the Monarchy at the expense of the Economy) they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: My Father is greater than I.' In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being a little lower than the angels.' Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another.” Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 9 (post A.D. 213). “Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter. ...even the Spirit of truth,' thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and San amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality? For, of course, all things will be what their names represent them to be; and what they are and ever will be, that will they be called; and the distinction indicated by the names does not at all admit of any confusion, because there is none in the things which they designate. "Yes is yes, and no is no; for what is more than these, cometh of evil." Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 9 (post A.D. 213). "[T]he statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages." Origen, First Principles, 4:28 (A.D. 230). ""Next, I may reasonably turn to those who divide and cut to pieces and destroy that most sacred doctrine of the Church of God, the Divine Monarchy, making it as it were three powers and partitive subsistences and god-heads three. I am told that some among you who are catechists and teachers of the Divine Word, take the lead in this tenet, who are diametrically opposed, so to speak, to Sabellius's opinions; for he blasphemously says that the Son is the Father, and the Father the Son, but they in some sort preach three Gods, as dividing the sacred Monad into three subsistences foreign to each other and utterly separate. For it must needs be that with the God of the Universe, the Divine Word is united, and the Holy Ghost must repose and habitate in God; thus in one as in a summit, I mean the God of the Universe, must the Divine Triad be gathered up and brought together. For it is the doctrine of the presumptuous Marcion, to sever and divide the Divine Monarchy into three origins,--a devil's teaching, not that of Christ's true disciples and lovers of the Saviour's lessons, For they know well that a Triad is preached by divine Scripture, but that neither Old Testament nor New preaches three Gods.” Pope Dionysius [regn. 260-268], to Dionysius of Alexandria, fragment in Athanasius' Nicene Definition 26 (A.D. 262). “Equally must one censure those who hold the: Son to be a work, and consider that the Lord has come into being, as one of things which really came to be; whereas the divine oracles witness to a generation suitable to Him and becoming, but not to any fashioning or making. A blasphemy then is it, not ordinary, but even the highest, to say that the Lord is in any sort a handiwork. For if He came to be Son, once He was not; but He was always, if (that is) He be in the Father, as He says Himself, and if the Christ be Word and Wisdom and Power (which, as ye know, divine Scripture says), and these attributes be powers of God. If then the Son came into being, once these attributes were not; consequently there was a time, when God was without them; which is most absurd… Neither then may we divide into three Godheads the wonderful and divine Monad; nor disparage with the name of 'work' the dignity and exceeding majesty of the Lord; but we must believe in God the Father Almighty, and in Christ Jesus His Son, and in the Holy Ghost, and hold that to the God of the universe the Word is united. For 'I,' says He, 'and the Father are one; 'and, 'I in the Father and the Father in Me.' For thus both the Divine Triad, and the holy preaching of the Monarchy, will be preserved." Pope Dionysius [regn. 260-268], to Dionysius of Alexandria, fragment in Athanasius' Nicene Definition 26 (A.D. 262). "Now the person in each declares the independent being and subsistence. But divinity is the property of the Father; and whenever the divinity of these three is spoken of as one, testimony is borne that the property of the Father belongs also to the Son and the Spirit: wherefore, if the divinity may be spoken of as one in three persons, the trinity is established, and the unity is not dissevered; and the oneness Which is naturally the Father's is also acknowledged to be the Son's and the Spirit's." Gregory the Wonderworker (Thaumaturgus), Sectional Confession of Faith, 8 (A.D. 270). "For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one. Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one Deity in three Persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreate, without end, and to which there is no successor. For neither will the Father ever cease to be the Father, nor again the Son to be the Son and King, nor the Holy Ghost to be what in substance and personality He is." Methodius, Oration on the Palms, 4 (A.D. 305). "We believe in one God, the Father almighty,maker of all things, visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God,begotten from the Father,only-begotten,that is,from the substance of the Father,God from God,light from light,true God from true God,begotten,not made,of one substance with the Father...And in the Holy Spirit." Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325). "Let no one therefore separate the Old from the New Testament; let no one say that the Spirit in the former is one, and in the latter another; since thus he offends against the Holy Ghost Himself, who with the Father and the Son together is honoured, and at the time of Holy Baptism is included with them in the Holy Trinity. For the Only-begotten Son of God said plainly to the Apostles, Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Our hope is in Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost. We preach not three God; let the Marcionites be silenced; but with the Holy Ghost through One Son, we preach One God. The Faith is indivisible; the worship inseparable. We neither separate the Holy Trinity, like some; nor do we as Sabellius work confusion. But we know according to godliness One Father, who sent His Son to be our Saviour we know One Son, who promised that He would send the Comforter from the Father; we know the Holy Ghost, who spake in the Prophets, and who on the day of Pentecost descended on the Apostles in the form of fiery tongues, here, in Jerusalem, in the Upper Church of the Apostles..." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 16:4 (c. A.D. 350). "I can see no limit to my venture of speaking concerning God in terms more precise than He Himself has used. He has assigned the Names--Father, Son and Holy Ghost,--which are our information of the Divine nature. Words cannot express or feeling embrace or reason apprehend the re suits of enquiry carried further; all is ineffable, unattainable, incomprehensible. Language is exhausted by the magnitude of the theme, the splendour of its effulgence blinds the gazing eye, the intellect cannot compass its boundless extent...When Israel hears that its God is one, and that no second god is likened, that men may deem him God, to God Who is God's Son, the revelation means that God the Father and God the Son are One altogether, not by confusion of Person but by unity of substance. For the prophet forbids us, because God the Son is God, to liken Him to some second deity....But I cannot describe Him, Whose pleas for me I cannot describe. As in the revelation that Thy Only-begotten was born of Thee before times eternal, when we cease to struggle with ambiguities of language and difficulties of thought, the one certainty of His birth remains; so I hold fast in my consciousness the truth that Thy Holy Spirit is from Thee and through Him, although I cannot by my intellect comprehend it." Hilary of Poiters, On the Trinity, 2:5,4:42,12:56 (A.D. 359). "[T]hey ought to confess that the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Ghost God, as they have been taught by the divine words, and by those who have understood them in their highest sense. Against those who cast it in our teeth that we are Tritheists, let it be answered that we confess one God not in number but in nature. For everything which is called one in number is not one absolutely, nor yet simple in nature; but God is universally confessed to be simple and not composite." Basil, To the Caesareans, Epistle 8 (A.D. 360). "For this Synod of Nicea is in truth a proscription of every heresy. It also upsets those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and call Him a Creature. For the Fathers, after speaking of the faith in the Son, straightway added, 'And we believe in the Holy Ghost,' in order that by confessing perfectly and fully the faith in the Holy Trinity they might make known the exact form of the Faith of Christ, and the teaching of the Catholic Church. For it is made clear both among you and among all, and no Christian can have a doubtful mind on the point, that our faith is not in the Creature, but in one God, Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible: and in one Lord Jesus Christ His Only-begotten Son, and in one Holy Ghost; one God known in the holy and perfect Trinity, baptized into which, and in it united to the Deity, we believe that we have also inherited the kingdom of the heavens, in Christ Jesus our Lord, hrough whom to the Father be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen." Athanasius, To the Bishops in Africa, 11 (A.D. 372). "And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified." Epiphanius, Creed (A.D. 374). "The Substance of the Trinity is, so to say, a common Essence in that which is distinct, an incomprehensible, ineffable Substance. We hold the distinction, not the confusion of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; a distinction without separation; a distinction without plurality; and thus we believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as each existing from and to eternity in this divine and wonderful Mystery: not in two Fathers, nor in two Sons, nor in two Spirits. For there is one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by Whom are all things, and we by Him.' There is One born of the Father, the Lord Jesus, and therefore He is the Only-begotten. There is also One Holy Spirit,' as the same Apostle hath said. So we believe, so we read, so we hold. We know the fact of distinction, we know nothing of the hidden mysteries; we pry not into the causes, but keep the outward signs vouchsafed unto us." Ambrose, On the Christian Faith, 8:92 (A.D. 380). "I have very carefully considered this matter in my own mind...but I have been unable to discover any thing on earth with which to compare the nature of the Godhead...I picture to myself an eye, a fountain, a river, as others have done before, to see if the first might be analogous to the Father, the second to the Son, and the third to the Holy Ghost...Again I thought of the sun and a ray and light. But here again there was a fear lest people should get an idea of composition in the Uncompounded Nature, such as there is in the Sun and the things that are in the Sun. And in the second place lest we should give Essence to the Father but deny Personality to the Others, and make Them only Powers of God, existing in Him and not Personal." Gregory of Nazianen, 5th Oration (31), 31, 32 (A.D. 380). "We believe in one God, the Father, almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things came into existence...And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is together worshipped and together glorified..." Creed of Constantinople (A.D. 381). "For neither the centurion nor that poor woman who for twelve years was wasting away with a bloody flux, had believed in the mysteries of the Trinity, for these were revealed to the Apostles after the resurrection of Christ; so that the faith of such as believe in the mystery of the Trinity might have its due preeminence: but it was her singleness of mind and her devotion to her God that met with our Lord's approval: 'For she said within herself, If I do but touch his garment, I shall be made whole.' This is the faith which our Lord said was seldom found. This is the faith which even in the case of those who believe aright is hard to find in perfection. 'According to your faith, be it done unto you,' says God. I do not, indeed, like the sound of those words. For if it be done unto me according to my faith, I shall perish. And yet I certainly believe in God the Father, I believe in God the Son, and I believe in God the Holy Ghost. I believe in one God; nevertheless, I would not have it done unto me according to my faith." Jerome, Against Luciferians, 15 (A.D. 382). "But they[ie. Catholics] worship the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, One Godhead; God the Father, God the Son and (do not be angry) God the Holy Ghost, One Nature in Three Personalities, intellectual, perfect, Self-existent, numerically separate, but not separate in Godhead." Gregory of Nazianzen, Against the Arians and concerning himself, Oration 33:16 (ante A.D. 389). "Seest thou that he implies that there is no difference in the gifts of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost? Not confounding the Persons, God forbid! But declaring the equal honor of the Essence. For that which the Spirit bestows, this he saith that God also works; this, that the Son likewise ordains and grants. Yet surely if the one were inferior to the other, or the other to it, he would not have thus set it down nor would this have been his way of consoling the person who was vexed." John Chrysostom, Homily on 1st Corinthians, 29:4 (c. A.D. 392). "Since, then, in the case of those who are regenerate from death to eternal life, it is through the Holy Trinity that the life-giving power is bestowed on those who with faith are deemed worthy of the grace, and in like manner the grace is imperfect, if any one, whichever it be, of the names of the Holy Trinity be omitted in the saving baptism--for the sacrament of regeneration is not completed in the Son and the Father alone without the Spirit: nor is the perfect boon of life imparted to Baptism in the Father and the Spirit, if the name of the Son be suppressed: nor is the grace of that Resurrection accomplished in the Father and the Son, if the Spirit be left out :--for this reason we rest all our hope, and the persuasion of the salvation of our souls, upon the three Persons, recognized by these names; and we believe in the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Fountain of life, and in the Only-begotten Son of the Father, Who is the Author of life, as saith the Apostle, and in the Holy Spirit of God, concerning Whom the Lord hath spoken, 'It is the Spirit that quickeneth". And since on us who have been redeemed from death the grace of immortality is bestowed, as we have said, through faith in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, guided by these we believe that nothing servile, nothing created, nothing unworthy of the majesty of the Father is to be associated in thought with the Holy Trinity; since, I say, our life is one which comes to us by faith in the Holy Trinity, taking its rise from the God of all, flowing through the Son, and working in us by the Holy Spirit.” Gregory of Nyssa, To the City of Sebasteia, Epistle 2 (ante A.D. 394). “Having, then, this full assurance, we are baptized as we were commanded, and we believe as we are baptized, and we hold as we believe; so that with one accord our baptism, our faith, and our ascription of praise are to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. But if any one makes mention of two or three Gods, or of three God-heads, let him be accursed. And if any, following the perversion of Arius, says that the Son or the Holy Spirit were produced from things that are not, let him be accursed. But as many as walk by the rule of truth and acknowledge the three Persons, devoutly recognized in Their several properties, and believe that there is one Godhead, one goodness, one rule, one authority and power, and neither make void the supremacy of the Sole-sovereignty, nor fall away into polytheism, nor confound the Persons, nor make up the Holy Trinity of heterogeneous and unlike elements, but in simplicity receive the doctrine of the faith, grounding all their hope of salvation upon the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,--these according to our judgment are of the same mind as we, and with them we also trust to have part in the Lord." Gregory of Nyssa, To the City of Sebasteia, Epistle 2 (ante A.D. 394). "We have said elsewhere that those things are predicated Specially in the Trinity as belonging severally to each person, which are predicated relatively the one to the other, as Father and Son, and the gift of both, the Holy Spirit; for the Father is not the Trinity, nor the Son the Trinity, nor the gift the Trinity: but what whenever each is singly spoken of in respect to themselves, then they are not spoken of as three in the plural number, but one, the Trinity itself, as the Father God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; the Father good, the Son good, and the Holy Spirit good; and the Father omnipotent, the Son omnipotent, and the Holy Spirit omnipotent: yet neither three Gods, nor three goods, nor three omnipotents, but one God, good, omnipotent, the Trinity itself; and whatsoever else is said of them not relatively in respect to each other, but individually in respect to themselves. For they are thus spoken of according to l essence, since in them to be is the same as to be great, as to be good, as to be wise, and whatever else is said of each person individually therein, or of the Trinity itself, in respect to themselves. And that therefore they are called three persons, or three substances, not in order that any difference of essence may be understood, but that we may be able to answer by some one word, should any one ask what three, or what three things? And that there is so great an equality in that Trinity, that not only the Father is not greater than the Son, as regards divinity, but neither are the Father and Son together greater than the Holy Spirit; nor is each individual person, whichever it be of the three, less than the Trinity itself." Augustine, On the Trinity, 8 Pref (A.D. 416). "All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the Father hath begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity. Yet not that this Trinity was born of the Virgin Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, buried and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was baptized; nor that, on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the Lord, when there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind,' the same Trinity sat upon each of them with cloven tongues like as of fire,' but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from heaven, Thou art my Son,' whether when He was baptized by John, or when the three disciples were with Him in the mount, or when the voice sounded, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again;' but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith." Augustine, On the Trinity, I:4,7 (A.D. 416). "But after him the schism of Sabellius burst forth out of reaction against the above mentioned heresy, and as he declared that there was no distinction between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, he impiously confounded, as far as was possible, the Persons, and failed to distinguish the holy and ineffable Trinity. Next after him whom we have mentioned there followed the blasphemy of Arian perversity, which, in order to avoid the appearance of confounding the Sacred Persons, declared that there were different and dissimilar substances in the Trinity." John Cassian, The Incarnation of Christ, 2 (A.D. 430). "In God there is one substance, but three Persons; in Christ two substances, but one Person. In the Trinity, another and another Person, not another and another substance (distinct Persons, not distinct substances)...Because there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Ghost; but yet there is not another and another nature (distinct natures) but one and the same nature." Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 37 (A.D. 434). "But although, dearly-beloved, the actual form of the thing done was exceeding wonderful, and undoubtedly in that exultant chorus of all human languages the Majesty of the Holy Spirit was present, yet no one must think that His Divine substance appeared in what was seen with bodily eyes. For His Nature, which is invisible and shared in common with the Father and the Son, showed the character of His gift and work by the outward sign that pleased Him, but kept His essential property within His own Godhead: because human sight can no more perceive the Holy Ghost than it can the Father or the Son. For in the Divine Trinity nothing is unlike or unequal, and all that can be thought concerning Its substance admits of no diversity either in power or glory or eternity. And while in the property of each Person the Father is one, the Son is another, and the Holy Ghost is another, yet the Godhead is not distinct and different; for whilst the Son is the Only begotten of the Father, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Son, not in the way that every creature is the creature of the Father and the Son, but as living and having power with Both, and eternally subsisting of That Which is the Father and the Son." Pope Leo the Great (regn. 440-461), Sermon 77:2 (ante A.D. 461). "Or, if any one should perhaps think that this is done out of veneration for the supreme Trinity, neither so is there any objection to immersing the person to be baptized in the water once, since, there being one substance in three subsistences, it cannot be in any way reprehensible to immerse the infant in baptism either thrice or once, seeing that by three immersions the Trinity of persons, and in one the singleness of the Divinity may be denoted." Pope Gregory the Great (regn. A.D. 590-604), To Leander Bishop of Hispalis, Letter 43 (A.D. 591). "These hypostases are within each other, not so that they are confused, but so that they contain one another, in accordance with the word of the Lord: I am in the Father and the Father is in me ...We do not say three gods, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, we say only one God, the Holy Trinity, the Son, and the Spirit going back to only one Principle, without composition or confusion, quite unlike the heresy of Sabellius. These Persons are united, not so that they are confused with each other, but so that they are contained within each other. There is between them a circumincession without mixture or confusion, by virtue of which they are neither seperated nor divided in substance, unlike the heresy of Arius. In fact, in a word, the divinity is undivided in the individuals, just as there is only one light in three suns contained within each other, by means of an intimate interprenetration." John of Damascus, Orthodox Faith, I:8 (A.D. 712). [/quote] [url="http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html#tradition-II"]http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_...ml#tradition-II[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReinnieR Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 [quote]One God in Three The Gospel asserts that the Word, Jesus, “was God” (John1:1). Jesus also said He was the Son of God, and “in the Father” (John 14:10). Yet when asked what the most important law was, He cited the creed of the Jewish people, first expressed in Deuteronomy. 6:4: “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart (Mark 12:29, 30). The Lord is one. Not two. Not three. So how can the Lord be one, as Jesus admitted, and yet seem to be more than one, with the Son on earth praying to the Father in heaven? The Gospel of John doesn’t explain how, but the Prologue clearly asserts that the Word-Son-Jesus is God, yet distinct from God the Father (John 1:1–18). And the end of the book includes another testimony to Jesus’ unique identity. After he touches the wounds of the risen Jesus, Thomas exclaims, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). In telling us who Jesus is, John stresses both identity (Jesus is the Lord God) and distinction (the Son is closely related to but not identical with the Father or the Holy Spirit). The earliest Christians lived with this complex relationship but left it to theologians in later centuries to explain the complex oneness of God in the doctrine of the Trinity, when the divine nature of Jesus was challenged in the late third and early fourth centuries of the Christian era. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (NAB) 27 for "he subjected everything under his feet." But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all. The one who subjected everything to him: the Father is the ultimate agent in the drama, and the final end of the process, to whom the Son and everything else is ordered (24.28). That God may be all in all: his reign is a dynamic exercise of creative power, an outpouring of life and energy through the universe, with no further resistance. This is the supremely positive meaning of "subjection": that God may fully be God. [/quote] Father Greg (cappie) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 to make a long answer short: to me the revealed doctrine of the Holy Trinity is the interpretive key for understandinging all of reality; the universe, being, the meaning of life, etc.. I can't imagine not believing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 10, 2006 Share Posted May 10, 2006 yep. there must be some constant force that makes everything exist. it must make time itself exist. therefore, it must predate time. but if it's a force of existence, it must have always been causing something to exist (the Son is eternally begotten, before all ages). The act of causing that other to exist is an eternal act, the Spirit of that force as it eternally begets. of course that's such a surgical, scientific, impersonal description... you gotta include the fact that that same force is Love itself, because as a force of existence it must will all things that do exist to exist so it must love all things... and then it must love something eternally so it eternally begets the Son and that act of loving the Son eternally is the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReinnieR Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 where did the person go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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