curtins Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 ok so you know how Enoch "walked with God" - Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. and then Elijah was taken into heaven in a firey chariot and Mary was assumed into heaven. So did they die? and Are Enoch and Elijah coming again to preach at the end of time against the anti Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 [quote name='curtins' post='974039' date='May 6 2006, 08:00 PM'] ok so you know how Enoch "walked with God" - Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. and then Elijah was taken into heaven in a firey chariot and Mary was assumed into heaven. So did they die?[/quote]enoch and elijah did not die. as for mary, it is debatable. the doctrine says only that "the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." it doesn't say how her life ended but only that once it ended she was assumed into heaven. so, for now, we are free to believe either that she was assumed when she was still alive, or that she died and then was assumed (those who hold this latter view say that this was so that she could participate in her son's death, but that she spent no time--or not a long time--in the ground b/c it would not be fitting for her body to experience decay). [quote] and Are Enoch and Elijah coming again to preach at the end of time against the anti Christ? [/quote]this is certainly what the jews believed. they thought john the baptist was elijah doing this very thing. i don't know what church tradition says about this. i can do some research if you like. i hope that helps peace, phatty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted May 7, 2006 Author Share Posted May 7, 2006 my mom says that if these 3 did not die then they suppercede Christ because Christ died and they're human so they have to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 these three don't supercede Christ because they were not [i][b]by their nature[/b][/i] excluded from death. instead they avoided death [i][b]only as a special privelage given to them by God[/b][/i]. surely He is allowed to do such a thing, and, at least with the first two, it is obvious in scripture that this is what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted May 7, 2006 Author Share Posted May 7, 2006 yeah thats what Im saying i mean ur goin through these geneologies and its like so and so lived x years and died so and so lived x years and died then Enoch comes in and walks with God- so its like theres deffinatly something special goin on there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 also, assumption implies inferiority b/c it requires someone else more powerful to assume them. it is less than ascension, in which a person rises to heaven [b][i]by his own power.[/i][/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted May 7, 2006 Author Share Posted May 7, 2006 it doesnt make sense that if mary was freed from the thing that causes death ( the fall- original sin) that she would die which is something that comes from sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 that is certainly one argument for the fact that she never died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted May 7, 2006 Author Share Posted May 7, 2006 my mom is giving the argument of splitting death from the corruption (ie the effect) of death i dont know is it open for discussion? or is there a deffinite teaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 [quote name='curtins' post='974136' date='May 6 2006, 10:10 PM'] my mom is giving the argument of splitting death from the corruption (ie the effect) of death i dont know is it open for discussion? or is there a deffinite teaching? [/quote] we agree with her that Enoch and Elijah [b][i]should[/i][/b] have died. they were due to die. though they were righteous men they were also sinners. death was indeed theirs to experience, as a result of their corruption. however, [b][i]God intervened[/i][/b]. he granted them a special privilege they did not deserve. it is indeed contrary to what should have happened. no one is denying that. but, [b][i]it did happen[/i][/b], and we're not just making it up. this is clearly in scripture: [b]Gen 5:24 [/b] Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. [b]Heb 11:5 [/b] By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God. [b]2 Kings 2:10-11[/b] And he said, "You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if you do not see me, it shall not be so." 11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. [b]1 Mac 2:58[/b] Elijah because of great zeal for the law was taken up into heaven. how can she deny these verses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 [quote name='curtins' post='974039' date='May 6 2006, 08:00 PM'] So did they die? and Are Enoch and Elijah coming again to preach at the end of time against the anti Christ? [/quote] It's possible, although I remember reading some Saint's prophecy that said something about Peter and Paul coming to earth and doing something. Might be a different prophecy though, idk. It would be fitting for them to die that way (martyred), although I don't think it's absolutely necessary that they die. The Lord speaks of those still alive when he comes; they won't die, but will be "transformed". So there are some exceptions to death, I guess, besides the Assumption. But in no way do they "supercede" Christ. The Lord freely submitted to death. As he said, he has power to give his life, and to take it up again. He is the Lord of all life. How can they be superior to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' post='974400' date='May 7 2006, 12:51 PM'] But in no way do they "supercede" Christ. The Lord freely submitted to death. As he said, he has power to give his life, and to take it up again. He is the Lord of all life. How can they be superior to him? [/quote] indeed. today's readings are quite relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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