Mortification

[Guest shiffty]

Hi,

Is mortification a legit thing? Hopefully I'm getting the definition of mortification right....as in the physical chastening of the body in order to resist temptation to sin/endure suffering like Christ. Thanks.

[Myles Domini]

Mortification is a broad concept. Fasting and abstience are types of mortidications. What you're talking of is Corporeal Mortification and indeed there's nothing wrong with it. People have been wearing hair shirts and scourging themselves for centuries after all. Nonetheless just remember the greatest mortifications are not the ones we choose ourselves but the ones thrust upon us against our will. For these mortifications in challenging our self-determination challenge our humillity and on one count and one count alone did Jesus tell us to imitate Him as being meek and humble of heart.

[Cam42]

[quote name='shiffty' post='973618' date='May 6 2006, 01:27 PM']
Hi,

Is mortification a legit thing? Hopefully I'm getting the definition of mortification right....as in the physical chastening of the body in order to resist temptation to sin/endure suffering like Christ. Thanks.
[/quote]

This is something that I don't speak about often, but the practice of mortification is a way of cleansing one's self. If it is done in a prayerful and honest way, then there is nothing wrong with it. If it is done in a way that is based upon scruples or some other form which is not in keeping with true and sound prayer, then there is nothing to be gained from it.

I personally do practice corporal mortification, in keeping with the traditions of Opus Dei. While technically, I am not supposed to do so, I have been granted permission from my spiritual director as I am not a numerary, but rather a supernumerary.

If I were to stop using this form of prayer in an honest way and using it in a way that bastardizes the meaning of the prayers, then I would need to stop.

I hope that this helps. I will not tell you which type of corporal mortification, it is a very personal thing, but it is something that can be a powerful form of prayer.

[Guest shiffty]

Thanks.

I ask this with Colossians 2 in mind. Verse 18 says "Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions...."

Verse 23: "These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and [u]severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh."
[/u]

I find this verse 23 especially to be very striking when thinking about mortification. I understand that nobody "insists" that you practice mortification as verse 18 states, but in 23, it seems to be very clear that severity to the body doesn't help stop the flesh. What do you make of this?


By the way I'm not Catholic, just trying to understand some things. Thanks again.

Edited May 7, 2006 by shiffty

[curtins]

if u want to know alot about mortification read the Way by st. Escriva- excellent book.

I think of mortifcation as anything that u wouldnt normally wanna do but you do to offer that small bit of suffering to Christ and unite urs with his on the Cross. Its a way of conquering yourself. St. Escriva points out to give your body a little less than it needs otherwise basically it will betray you. Mortification is especially good during Lent. and it doesnt have to be something big like a fast or anything it can be very small, as Escriva encourages, such as maybe refusing to eat desert one night, or being nice to those who bother you, keeping quiet when you are unjustly accused. Mortification is good because it unites our small suffering to Christ's great suffering.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='shiffty' post='974266' date='May 7 2006, 12:56 PM']
Thanks.

I ask this with Colossians 2 in mind. Verse 18 says "Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions...."

Verse 23: "These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and [u]severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh."
[/u]

I find this verse 23 especially to be very striking when thinking about mortification. I understand that nobody "insists" that you practice mortification as verse 18 states, but in 23, it seems to be very clear that severity to the body doesn't help stop the flesh. What do you make of this?
By the way I'm not Catholic, just trying to understand some things. Thanks again.
[/quote]

To paraphrase from some other elements of the Pauline corpus if you make your God your belly you're in serious trouble. To paraphrase Our Blessed Lord now that the bridegroom is no longer with us in these days we fast--technically not these days because this is the joyous season of Easter but you get my drift. Fasting and other sorts of mortifications can/do help to develop self-control and discipline essential virtues for anyone who takes the teaching of Christ seriously, that is, if you love me you will follow my commandments as he says in John 15. However, asceticism is not an ends in itself but a means towards an ends. To understand the passage from Colossians that you cite I believe it would be best a) to remember the context in which it was written b) its canonical context--that is against what the rest of the New Testament has to say about mortification and c) what the Church then and now has had to say on the issue.

[Era Might]

Be careful about strict external mortifications (eg, flagellation). They are a great source of spiritual pride and can easily obscure the fact that your fight is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers. It would be wise to use them at the discretion of a spiritual director (your minister, perhaps, since you're not Catholic, or a trusted and spiritual friend).

St. Faustina Kowalska relates in her diary what the Lord once told her:

[quote]You will earn more merit by one hour of meditation on My sorrowful Passion than there is to a whole year of flagellation that draws blood; the contemplation of My painful wounds is of great profit to you, and it brings Me great joy.[/quote]

[Eutychus]

[quote]This is something that I don't speak about often, but the practice of mortification is a way of cleansing one's self. If it is done in a prayerful and honest way, then there is nothing wrong with it. If it is done in a way that is based upon scruples or some other form which is not in keeping with true and sound prayer, then there is nothing to be gained from it.

I personally do practice corporal mortification, in keeping with the traditions of Opus Dei. While technically, I am not supposed to do so, I have been granted permission from my spiritual director as I am not a numerary, but rather a supernumerary. [/quote]

Pray tell, just how does beating the snot out of one's self, CLEAN you? Do the sins fall out? Is the pain useful in making you more acceptable to God?

Having done considerable work preparing for many items, including Opus Dei, by my teaching our church's 6 week course for the upcoming DaVinci movie, I've spent hours on both pro and anti Opus sites. Frankly the zealotry exhibited by the more fanatical members, especially the founder Jose Escriva is so alien to what a normal Evangelical Christian finds as normal BIBLICAL { New Testament } practice as to have me question the practice. Sure, MANY early members practiced these practices. BUT so many early members came out of pagan cults and brought with them practices that were utterly unknown as evidenced in the book of Acts. When a Christian "took a beating" in the book of acts, he didn't self administer it, but rather, as with Paul who took FIVE beatings of fourty lashes less one by the Jews, it was a punishement meted out to them by the ADVERSARIES, and they were "working for the anti {against}Christ side of the equation.

When a normal Evangelical, sincerely investigating the Opus order finds statements that have been verifiably true, as this one, it makes the "Crazed Albino Monk" { I know there are no monks in OD } seem perfectly plausible.

[quote][color="#CC0000"][b]He was generous in the practice of corporal mortification, a traditional means of Christian self-purification and penance. He is recorded as having whipped himself until the walls of a bathroom were splattered with blood.[/b][/color] He once wrote:
[size=4]
[color="#3333FF"]"[i][u][b]Blessed be pain. Loved be pain. Sanctified be pain...Glorified be pain!"[/b][/u][/i][/color] [/size]

(The Way, #208).[/quote]

[Brother Adam]

Sounds like St. Paul to me.


Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.

Colossians 1:24

[Eutychus]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='976441' date='May 9 2006, 01:33 PM']
Sounds like St. Paul to me.
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.

Colossians 1:24
[/quote]

Good grief. NOW I've heard everything. Paul a flagellant??

And to apply self mortification, done voluntarily, against a man who suffered THESE things for Jesus? Is about the most mistaken misuse of scripture I have seen in the last 15 minutes on this site....

[quote]2 Corinthians 11:22 (KJ2000)

Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the descendants of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes beyond measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths often.
[u][b]
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes less one.

25 Three times was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, three times I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;[/b][/u]

26 In journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by my own countrymen, in perils by the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Besides those things that are outside, that which comes upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things which concern my weaknesses.

31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forevermore, knows that I lie not.



Those "flagellation markings" YOU APPARENTLY found on Paul, were the SCARS of FIVE SCOURGINGS, THREE BEATINGS WITH CROWBARS, and ONE CAPITAL PUNISHEMENT OF BEING STONED TO DEATH.

The "Marks OF Jesus"

Amazing what Eisegis can 'find' in scripture, isn't it?

[Brother Adam]

Hey, you're a fundamentalist aren't you? Cool. It's been a while since we've converted one, most run away when they begin to realize the Catholic Church is the one true, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. Truth is scary.

I'm sorry you don't have any idea what you are talking about, but that is what we are here for, to help.

No one said St. Paul was talking about flagnation. Rather, he is elaborating on the value of suffering, that suffering is no longer meaningless in the cross.

Now, let's look at the Way -

"A whole program for a good course in the subject of suffering has been given to us by the Apostle "spegaudentes", "rejoicing in hope, "in tribulatione patientes" "patient in tribulation" "oorationi instantes "persevering in prayer." #209

"Jesus suffers to carry out the will of the Father. And you, who also want to carry out the most holy will of God, following in the steps of the Master, can you complain if you meet suffering on your way?" #213

The passage #208 is under the heading of "Penance" not mortification.

Sorry, you're the one misusing the text. If you are going to try to insult Opus Dei, get their beliefs right.

Edited May 9, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Eutychus]

[quote]Hey, you're a fundamentalist aren't you? Cool. It's been a while since we've converted one, most run away when they begin to realize the Catholic Church is the one true, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. Truth is scary. [/quote]

[b]Moi, a fundy? Nah. Fundies are weird.

I'm in a sub sect of a sub sect, I think we are number 27,546 in the list of 33,000 and RISING versions of Non-Catholic spin off denominations.

When we are not barking like dogs, or rolling on the floor, we adore our bibles, after all, you know we really DO worship those books, or so I've been told.[/b]

The main trouble is, my monstrance just won't hold that NKJV worth beans, it keeps falling out and thudding to the floor, definately NO WAY to properly venerate a "emasculated short version" of the real bible with the Apocrapha stories, I especially like Bel and Hansel and Gretel, that one always makes me glad that the Catholic church "gave" me the bible!

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='976538' date='May 9 2006, 02:21 PM']
[b]Moi, a fundy? Nah. Fundies are weird.

I'm in a sub sect of a sub sect, I think we are number 27,546 in the list of 33,000 and RISING versions of Non-Catholic spin off denominations.

When we are not barking like dogs, or rolling on the floor, we adore our bibles, after all, you know we really DO worship those books, or so I've been told.[/b]

The main trouble is, my monstrance just won't hold that NKJV worth beans, it keeps falling out and thudding to the floor, definately NO WAY to properly venerate a "emasculated short version" of the real bible with the Apocrapha stories, I especially like Bel and Hansel and Gretel, that one always makes me glad that the Catholic church "gave" me the bible!


[/quote]

Wow. You sound like you are a well-armed christian with all the tools to answer and defunct questions about your faith/denomination. It also looks like you are well informed of the Catholic church and it's practices. Reminds me of this guy once whose first name escapes me but his last name resembles the first man in Genesis.

[Eutychus]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='976560' date='May 9 2006, 02:39 PM']
Wow. You sound like you are a well-armed christian with all the tools to answer and defunct questions about your faith/denomination. It also looks like you are well informed of the Catholic church and it's practices. Reminds me of this guy once whose first name escapes me but his last name resembles the first man in Genesis.
[/quote]

Well armed? Let me see here, ONE.....TWO.....

OK, does that count as being "well armed" only two?

As a former Catholic, some of the teachings linger on, that 'undertow" thing that MACollins loves to talk about, has it's effect.

The FIRST man in Genesis? You mean the guy that is named after the dirt from which he was made? That is the first time I've been likened to a mudman in my life....

[quote]120. 'adam

Search for H120 in KJVSL
Mda 'adam aw-dawm'

from 119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.):--X another, [b][u]+ hypocrite,[/u] [/b]+ common sort, X low, man [u](mean, of low degree)[/u], person.

[/quote]

I certainly hope that I'm not being tagged with the underlined off meaning, after all, I've not been here long enough to have earned THAT appelation, now have I?

Deflect? Nah. I'm wearing the WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD, so those "fiery darts" just bounce off me, got my suit on sale at a medieval festival sale after they went under.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='976695' date='May 9 2006, 04:58 PM']
That is the first time I've been likened to a mudman in my life....
I certainly hope that I'm not being tagged with the underlined off meaning, after all, I've not been here long enough to have earned THAT appelation, now have I?


[/quote]

LOL, no silly. I was reffering to the one you've been going back and forth with. Brother Adam.