Catholic Divisions

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='LSW' post='974630' date='May 7 2006, 04:44 PM']

[/quote]

[jswranch]

jasJis,
You are in my prayers. Did you happen to check out one of my previous responses? I put a lot of time into it. (Post #41)
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=51185&view=findpost&p=972986"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...ndpost&p=972986[/url]

blovedwolfofgod had some great responses. Let me add some more.

[quote]What about the divided Catholic Church?[/quote]
(here we go)

[quote]Look at the animosity between "Trads" and "Libs" within the Church.[/quote]
Yes, there exists a division between trads and libs. Yes the animosity, at times, reaches an unchristian/uncharitable level. So what? [u]I would not say either of these groups are no longer Catholic.[/u] Most of your questions revolve around who to trust. It is a very valid question. [b]The answer is the Pope, the Magisterium, and the Councils. [/b] (PMC) Those are the sources we have. They are the sources of our Dogmas and proper understanding. Those are the ones to trust. For bishops and priests (and all Catholics), part of their office is to disseminate, explain and define these teachings. Either someone is obedient to the rulings of the Magisterium, Pope, and Councils, or they are not. Plain and simple: this is the authority of the Church.

[quote]What about the animosity about holding hands during the Our Father? It's not like the congregation are disobeying the priest in all these parishes.[/quote]
You are correct in saying the congregation are not disobeying the priest. Obeying or disobeying the priest here is more issue of being obedient to the Magisterium, who gets to rule on the issue. The priest only enforces or guides the Catholics to what the Magisterium says. As for holding hands, the Magisterium has not definitively ruled. Here is an excellent Jimmy Akin article on the subject:
[url="http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/04/hand_holding_ru.html"]http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/04/hand_holding_ru.html[/url]
Essentially, if the Magisterium were to publish a document approving or disapproving the act, we would be obliged to obey. Until then, a level of discussion is allowed and even encouraged.

[quote]What about the "disapproval" of many Caths regarding recieving in the hand instead of on the tongue?[/quote]
How has the Magisterium ruled? The answer is the Magisterium allowed for the communion in the hand in the USA.

[quote]Why are there so many nuns with "wacky" ideas for liturgies and stuff? Why has the American Church bishops strayed so far from what Trad Caths claim is correct teaching? How can Bishops promote condoms if condoms are so wrong? How can a bishop get married by Rev. Moon?[/quote]
Let me begin answering your questions by starting with a picture:
[img]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40790000/jpg/_40790837_papanicaragua.jpg[/img]

Here we see the Pope (JP2) chewing out a priest for spreading and supporting error. The chewing has not stopped. Next, ask yourself, "How could the early church stray from truth in Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia, etc." The answers are the same. Do remember how I stated, "For bishops and priests (and all Catholics), part of their office is to disseminate, explain and define these teachings?" Their office is not considered to be infallible. They can and have sinned.

[quote]Why has the American Church bishops strayed so far from what Trad Caths claim is correct teaching?[/quote]
Could not tell you. The rad trad are in error according to the Pope, Magisterium, Councils.

[quote]How can priests engage in active homosexuality and remain priests?[/quote]
They repent to God. God forgives them. If bishop believes they have repented and are safe to return to the ministry, the go back to their jobs. Also, I believe a dogma of the faith is 'once ordained, always ordained.'

[quote]How can their be such questions about the various translations of the Bible that are approved by the Church but some be called 'heretical' by learned and faithful Catholics?[/quote]
I have never heard of this. Sounds like a rad-trad thing. However, approval can come from bishops, who, again are not infallible.

[quote]Why the ambiguity of the Grace of Infallibiltiy in actual application. Is it this Papal decree, or that one, or this one here, the Beatificaiont of Simon, the deomtion of Simon, woman Can't be priest infallible or not?[/quote]
Again refer to the Pope and magisterium here.

[quote]Why does it seem a Catholic has to be a degreed theologian, a certified canon lawyer, a registered mystic, an accredited philosopher, to even hope that their understanding is 'correct'?[/quote]
Pope, magisterium, council have dumbed it down. Just read what they have written. If that is too much, find a priest who is in good standing with his bishop. Listen to his spiritual counsel. Theologian and good catholic are not necessarily the same thing. Look at S. Therese of Liseaux. She had little training as a theologian, etc. Yet, she wrote of her walk with God and became a spiritual doctor of the church. Do not seek to understand Catholicism’s ‘Story of a Soul’ by learning every theological and liturgical detail. Use ‘Story of a Soul’ (and others like it) to understand how theology and liturgy can continue your walk with God. Honestly, that is what Catholicism hopes to attain. We are to strengthen our relationship with God. The church (aside from the grace giving sacraments) serves as a road sign to a better relationship and understanding.

[quote]Why is it that you couldn't get any 4 Catholics here at phatmass to all agree on an answer to a significant question?[/quote]
Want four? Here is five. I agree with everything ReinnerR, Brother Adam, Avemaria40, and belovedwolfofgod have written so far. I assume they agree with me.

[quote]I'm being dead serious here. I've been told plenty of times by people here that I have to come 'home' to the Church or I'm condemned to hell. (Turn or burn ) I've been told the Church is the Pillar of Truth.[/quote]
Is the bible or the church the pillar of truth? 1 tim 3:15.

[quote]What EXACTLY is the "TRUTH."[/quote]
God. His will. We are to follow his laws and come to conclusions his grace has been revealed in us.

[quote]I am to return to that I don't have where I am? [/quote]
We are to bind ourselves to that which God wills. He has willed the church.

[quote]The TRUTH that God loves me and I NEED His Mercy that is part of His Justice? I've got that. I am totally at His Mercy. Where am I finding additional "TRUTH" from the Catholic Church? From the priest who has LifeTeen kids on the Altar? From Bishop Lefebe? From the Bishop of LA? From Cardinal form the Boston area? From the videos of Bishop Sheen?[/quote]
Any authority which those folks have, comes from the same source: Pope, council, magisterium. All was started by God who sent Christ.

[quote]From [u]which[/u] Pope Urban or Alexander or John Paul or Benedict? [/quote]
All of them. The most recent Pope takes precedence. We are a people and a church on a journey. We use the term 'pilgrim church.' As we proceed through time, we grow wiser and more knowledgeable as individuals and a church.

[quote]So American Bishops are suspect, I need to move to Rome?...[/quote]
Read the writings of the Vatican yourself. I do not claim one way or another on the obedience of the USCCB. I do claim they are bishops and need to be treated and regarded as such. You do not need to move; (worst case scenario) some of the greatest Saints grew with Christ in tough places.

[quote]Talk to Micheal Filo here and he'll swear that even masturbation is a fundamental moral truth that should be known by prots and agnostics alike and that it's a mortal sin that'll condemn you.[/quote]
What has the PMC (pope, magisterium, council) said? Their opinion weighs more.

[quote]I loved what Bro. Adam used to have by his avatar. "Will the real Catholic please stand up." My challenge is: "Will the real Catholic Church please identify itself." [/quote]
PMC. Here is a start.
[img]http://www.opusdei.org/image/jpii.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.ciberapostolado.org/images/bxvi.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.nwscape.com/stmichael/images/vaticanII.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.havelshouseofhistory.com/Pius%20X.jpg[/img]

[quote]Since you guys all claim to be pretty darn good Catholics, let's have a consensus. I know I'm not, what about you or another poster here at phatmass? Catholic or not Catholic? Is Bush better than Kerry at being Christian? Is Kennedy as Catholic as Koran kissing JPII or "St." Simon? Coptic or Greek Orthodox or Roman?[/quote]
Our 'consensus' means little. There is but one truth. We can only cite it or explain it further.

[quote]Koran kissing JPII[/quote]
Are you sure?
[url="http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/04/jp2_and_the_qur.html"]http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/04/jp2_and_the_qur.html[/url]
Does it really matter?

[quote]I'm not good enough. I can't find my way alone. The discordant "Church" is not a steady welcoming beacon. [/quote]
You are my brother. How can I be more of a beacon to you?

[quote]I am not abandoned by God. [/quote]
True. And it sounds like you have grown in understanding of your calling during this period in your life through questioning. I do wish you were inside the fullness of the Church while you figured these things out. Peter, not understanding all that Jesus taught, responded, “To whom shall we go?” Perhaps he should be your model.

[quote]From where I'm at, being a Christian does not require being "Catholic".[/quote]
But does that equal truth? We have lots of data to say no.

[quote]As Mother Teresa said, If you're going to be a buhdist, be a good one. If your'e going to be a hindu, be a good one. If you're going to be a muslim, be a good one. Since I can't be a 'good Catholic' (whatever or whomever defines that) I'll at least be a good non-Catholic.[/quote]
This is a good plan for you so far. This does not mean it is the fullness of truth.

[quote]I am a better man and a better Christian than who I was 3 years ago. Sorry, you didn't know me. As far as my Catholic status, I'm just more honest now because I'm more knowledgeable. [/quote]
I have no reason to doubt this. Praise the lord for your growth.

[quote]My problem stems with hair splitting rules that has become the Catholic Church here on earth. Maybe it's my misperception based on my experiences here. [/quote]
Since becoming catholic in November, the world has joyfully become infinitely larger at the same time more simple. You have many misconceptions. The hair spitting is not necessary for all the items you listed. Find a Catholic spiritual adviser. How you are to live with Christ in your heart is where you should be splitting hairs.

[quote]Let's start from the fundamentals. God is good and the only God. He created us with free will. Free will let's us choose good or evil. God tolerates the presence of evil because Free Will means we have to have a choice. To compensate for the damge and death evil does, God heals and re-births for good. By becoming Man and God incarnate, God experienced all the evil we can do to 'earn' and justify His mercy. God is constantly present with us via the Holy Spirit. Despite me putting this all in a few sentences, I don't think most Christians would have too much problem with that. (Though of course, here at pm, there will be a dozen posts 'clarifying and correcting' me because of their theological studies and degrees.) [/quote]
So far so good. We agree.

[quote]Peter was a fisherman, Paul was the scholar. Who became 'pope'?[/quote]
Peter.

[quote]Religion is a human institution that transmits and preserves Divine Knowledge of God. [/quote]
Yes and no. It is an institution. Christianity is a religion. Bride of Christ= human institution of church (on earth)= the Christian church was instituted by Christ. So while it is made of unresurected humans (here), it is a strong part of God’s plan for the salvation of the world, just as the nation of Israel once was.

[quote]Basically so we don't all have to re-create the world. That's Tradition.[/quote]
Don’t forget God's hand in this.

[quote]Disposing of that Tradition, you end up with all these wacky prot religions. Fine. Let's preserve Tradition. So then we have a Tradtional religion. What part of that Tradition do we keep or let go? The part that says God loves us and became Man seems reasonable and Right. The lack of this Traditional Knowledge knocks the Mormons out. What about the Tradition of the Supper? Do we do it in homes? What's the understanding of that? Circumcise, or not as Paul and Peter had to resove? The Tradition Religion has to have some sort of discerning athority, doesn't it? People are reading this and saying jas is talking himself right into the Catholic Church. I'm not.[/quote]
Ok, so far so good. This is basic catechism.

[quote]Here's my stumbling block. The Church 'athority' has done alot of wrong things because of the human element. [/quote]
And it has apologized. Big deal.

[quote]Should Confirmation and Communion be administered at Birth like in the Eastern Church, or staged out like the Western Church? Should Sacraments be 3 seperate acts of Initiation into the Church or 3 parts of one Sacrament? Who to believe? Where does the Church's real ability to be 'infalible' begin or end in these matters? Do the 'faithful' have to be theological experts to figure it out?[/quote]
PMC has spoken. The issue is finished.

[quote]Then, looking at the human element of the Church and it being a civil power on Earth, it's power is then open to abuse by mere humans like you and I… The line I draw and the line the temporal Catholic Church draws has us separated. The problem is where does God draw the line? If I discard the Church's line, I risk blinding myself. If I discard my line for just the Church's, I risk lying to myself. What I'm having a hell of a time is discerning whether the human nature of the Church or the Divine nature of the Church is drawing the line. Should I move my line or am I on the right side?[/quote]
On the topic of the human element, see my previous posts to you I mentioned at the start. Also, Scott Hahn’s book: A Father Who Keeps His Promises: God's Covenant Love in Scripture
[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0892838299/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-2105804-0293717?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=283155"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-...onDate&n=283155[/url]

I will buy it for you if you want.

[quote]AoJ,
Are you a member of the same Catholic Church that Catholic Fanatic belongs to? Which of you is right?
[/quote]
PMC again.

Take care brother.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Our 'consensus' means little. There is but one truth. We can only cite it or explain it further.[/quote]

The jewel in a crown of a post

Even if every single Catholic on Phatmass and 99% of the baptised Catholics in the world did not believe in the authorative teaching of the Catholic Church it wouldn't make the slightest difference.

[quote]Truth is not determined by a majority vote--Joseph Ratzinger[/quote]

[ReinnieR]

Myles is cool

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='975045' date='May 8 2006, 02:39 AM']
Myles is cool
[/quote]

[jswranch]

[quote name='Myles Domini' post='975043' date='May 8 2006, 02:06 AM']
The jewel in a crown of a post
[/quote]
Thanks, only took me three days.

Edited May 8, 2006 by jswranch

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='jswranch' post='975048' date='May 8 2006, 09:48 AM']
Thanks, only took me three days.
[/quote]



Are you serious?

[jswranch]

[quote name='Myles Domini' post='975050' date='May 8 2006, 02:56 AM']


Are you serious?
[/quote]
sort of:
3 days
plus work, plus planning for 2nd honeymoon to rome, plus 2 kids, plus social life.

I really have a heart for jasJis and his situation.

Edited May 8, 2006 by jswranch

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='jswranch' post='975052' date='May 8 2006, 10:13 AM']
sort of:
3 days
plus work, plus planning for 2nd honeymoon to rome, plus 2 kids, plus social life.

I really have a heart for jasJis and his situation.
[/quote]

:applause:

Now thats dedication...
...enjoy your honeymoon!

[DingoBot]

[quote name='Myles Domini' post='975054' date='May 8 2006, 03:22 AM']
:applause:

Now thats dedication...
...enjoy your honeymoon!
[/quote]
Why now? I'm glad we have that all cleared up.

[jswranch]

[quote name='DingoBot' post='975058' date='May 8 2006, 03:35 AM']
Why now? I'm glad we have that all cleared up.
[/quote]

2nd honeymoon. First time to rome for me. First time off the continent for her. Married 4 years, 2 kids, one on the way.

[Era Might]

Disclaimer: I haven't read through the thread. Only so many hours in the day. If I repeat something, deal with it.


The Magisterium and the concept of infallibility do not ensure external unity in the Church. All Catholics have free will, and can obey or disobey at their pleasure. It's a misguided apologetic to suggest that Catholics are united and Protestants aren't, because that's consistently disproven throughout history, from the Gnostics to the schism between East and West to the schism of Marcel Lefebvre. Catholics will always dissent.

So how is the existence of an infallible Magisterium any advantage over Protestantism? In the fact that there is a single authority who can, if necessary, settle disputes. There is a Pope in Catholicism who can define Catholicism, and say "If you do or do not believe this, you are not Catholic". The person can still say, "I still don't, or I still do, believe it". But he can no longer call himself (or, in some cases, his proposition) "Catholic". In Protestantism, every man's opinion is necessarily valid, so that it can't be said "This is something that we can't believe".

Unity is not merely peaceful communion between Christians. Rather, unity is a supernatural continuity of faith, and a charism that is perpetually assured in our willfull communion with the Bishop of Rome.

And Chesterton's maxim remains true: "Catholics agree about everything. They just disagree about everything else."

[mariahLVzJP2]

i read this thread and the responses to Jas's questions were quite impressive, just wondering what Jas thinks though.

[jasJis]

[quote name='mariahLVzJP2' post='979377' date='May 12 2006, 01:17 PM']
i read this thread and the responses to Jas's questions were quite impressive, just wondering what Jas thinks though. [/quote]Mixed reviews. I mostly liked it. I had to re-read his posts (and PM's) a few times. Some points gave me a fresh perspective, other points I don't think were answered. Things are being mulled around in my mind and heart. I know I will never be a "True Believer" in the Catholic Church. It's the line of separating the REAL Theology from the Practiced Theology of the Church.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='jasJis' post='979446' date='May 12 2006, 02:29 PM']
Mixed reviews. I mostly liked it. I had to re-read his posts (and PM's) a few times. Some points gave me a fresh perspective, other points I don't think were answered. Things are being mulled around in my mind and heart. I know I will never be a "True Believer" in the Catholic Church. It's the line of separating the REAL Theology from the Practiced Theology of the Church.
[/quote]

I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. Simply from the fact that you are mulling it over in your mind and heart tells me that the Holy Spirit is at work within you. I ask you simply to be [i]open[/i] to the Truth.

If you really "know" what you will never be, then there is no room for God to teach you what you might become.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff