Catholic Divisions

[jasJis]

In another thread, a prot 'jesuspaidtheprice' brought up a point that wasn't seriously debunked, debated, or discussed.

What about the divided Catholic Church?

Look at the animosity between "Trads" and "Libs" whithin the Church.

What about the animosity about holding hands during the Our Father? It's not like the congregation are disobeying the priest in all these parishes.

What about the "disapproval" of many Caths regarding recieving in the hand instead of on the tongue?

Why are there so many nuns with "wacky" ideas for liturgies and stuff?

Why has the American Church bishops strayed so far from what Trad Caths claim is correct teaching?

How can a bishop get married by Rev. Moon?

How can priests engage in active homosexuality and remain priests?

How can Bishops promote condoms if condoms are so wrong?

How can their be such questions about the various translations of the Bible that are approved by the Church but some be called 'heretical' by learned and faithful Catholics?

Why the ambiguity of the Grace of Infallibiltiy in actual application. Is it this Papal decree, or that one, or this one here, the Beatificaiont of Simon, the deomtion of Simon, woman Can't be priest infallible or not?

Why does it seem a Catholic has to be a degreed theologian, a certified canon lawyer, a registered mystic, an accredited philosopher, to even hope that their understanding is 'correct'?

Why is it that you couldn't get any 4 Catholics here at phatmass to all agree on an answer to a significant question?

I'm being dead serious here. I've been told plenty of times by people here that I have to come 'home' to the Church or I'm condemned to hell. (Turn or burn ) I've been told the Church is the Pillar of Truth.

What EXACTLY is the "TRUTH" I am to return to that I don't have where I am? The TRUTH that God loves me and I NEED His Mercy that is part of His Justice? I've got that. I am totally at His Mercy. Where am I finding additional "TRUTH" from the Catholic Church? From the priest who has LifeTeen kids on the Altar? From Bishop Lefebe? From the Bishop of LA? From Cardinal form the Boston area? From the videos of Bishop Sheen? From [u]which[/u] Pope Urban or Alexander or John Paul or Benedict?

[u]Inquiring souls want to know.[/u]

[Brother Adam]

Fascinating. You just asked the same question Pilate asked before releasing Christ to be crucified. I'll leave it to someone far wiser than myself to answer.

[ReinnieR]

i can't answer all your questions i'll give this a shot.

i'm gonna agree with brother adam on the question "what is truth?" check out my signiture.

for 1. i don't believe that the church is divided. what i'm about to say you probobly already know. but here goes

[b]The Church is ONE[/b]

Jesus established only [b]one[/b] Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Church is the bride of Christ. Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.


and 2. [b]The church is HOLY[/b]
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).



and yes i copied and pasted these words are not of my own.

source: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp[/url]

you've read that a thosand times probobly

[Kilroy the Ninja]

I'd say most things American are suspect. Go with Rome.

[Colleen]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' post='973455' date='May 6 2006, 10:08 AM']
I'd say most things American are suspect. Go with Rome.
[/quote]

[avemaria40]

Just because a bunch of people, clergy and laity alike are doing some funky things with Church teaching does not automatically make the Catholic Church divided. People may think different ways on a certain point of theology but that's because we're all different and we think and interpret things differently. Just because a bishop [b]personally[/b] believes condoms are OK doesn't mean that its' what the Church teaches. Clergy can and do go astray, Holy Orders doesn't remove their capacity to sin. This is what drove people like St. Francis of Assisi and St. Catherine of Siena to reform certain aspects of the Church, because clerics were leading them astray. People can't just let things go wrong and not do something about it, they have to stand up against it. As for the whole trad/charismatic thing, Catholics can have their own ways of praising and worshiping God and still be in communion with Rome. This also goes for the many Rites of the Catholic Church. The Sacraments are the same, the message is the same, it's just presented differently. Protestants, on the other hand, do not have this authority and what they believe on Sacraments, justification, etc. are very different from each denomination while Catholics believe the same thing when it comes to justification, etc. This is why the authority of the Church is necessary, it preserves the unity of the Church.

[blovedwolfofgod]

I will give this a try Jas. But my answers are simple, because I feel alot of the questions are.

[quote]Look at the animosity between "Trads" and "Libs" whithin the Church.
[/quote]

Jesus said there will be brother against brother, son against father, etc. Some people feel they are more 'catholic' than the Pope.

[quote]What about the animosity about holding hands during the Our Father? It's not like the congregation are disobeying the priest in all these parishes.[/quote]
Sounds like an arguement over practice, though unless there is a theological reason to not do it, pastoral discretion should be adhered to, however, yet another place where sin has corrupted a person or people.

[quote]What about the "disapproval" of many Caths regarding recieving in the hand instead of on the tongue?[/quote]

Well, they can disapprove all they want. The Bible is quite clear in this matter in Corinthians. Dont cause your brother to stumble, but then, dont allow yourself to stumble because of how someone else eats.

[quote]Why are there so many nuns with "wacky" ideas for liturgies and stuff?[/quote]

St. Augustine talks about the world and its pleasures. The world is designed to point to God. But its obvious through Israel's constant idolatry that the world is good and enticing. Should be no surprise that people wish to somehow forget about the focus of the Mass and place it on us. But then, some people wish to create beautiful things for the Lord. Thats good too, but there is a proper context, and its not always Mass. So... sinful nature again, only this one in the area of idolatry... or ourselves, of the world...

[quote]Why has the American Church bishops strayed so far from what Trad Caths claim is correct teaching?[/quote]

Well, some of them have. Not all however. But you watch the news. The bad news is whats on TV, rarely the good news, unless its sensational. An orthodox bishop and how he does things the right way isnt news.

On a more serious note, Traditionalist is an opinion... from what I have seen. Realistically, people disagree on things.

[quote]How can a bishop get married by Rev. Moon?[/quote]
Illicitly. I dont even know if it would be sacramentally valid... either way, someone gets excommunicated...

[quote]How can priests engage in active homosexuality and remain priests?[/quote]

Book of Hebrews. "You are a high priest forever, according to the order of Melchizadek." Yeah... it ticks me off a little too. But then, who am I to disagree with God?

[quote]How can Bishops promote condoms if condoms are so wrong?
[/quote]
Desire to compromise. From the news releases I have read on this situation, it seems to be a lesser of two evils situation. The desire to preserve the health of one partner, while still allowing the conjugle act. However, on issues like this, there, sometimes unfortunately, should be no compromise. But then again, we are dealing with men. Men preach. The Magisterium is not a man.

[quote]How can their be such questions about the various translations of the Bible that are approved by the Church but some be called 'heretical' by learned and faithful Catholics?
[/quote]

Pride... some people feel they are more Catholic than the Church. I also cant speak, nor can anyone else, for the actions of each individual. We all have our own walks.

[quote]Why the ambiguity of the Grace of Infallibiltiy in actual application. Is it this Papal decree, or that one, or this one here, the Beatificaiont of Simon, the deomtion of Simon, woman Can't be priest infallible or not?
[/quote]
Thats a good question...

Okay... So, yeah... i took a stab. Hope you didnt find this post childish and insulting to your intellegence.

Edited May 6, 2006 by blovedwolfofgod

[Jaime]

Why do abuses and misconceptions in the Church occur? There is a universal rule that gets overlooked quite often.


People move quickly. The Church moves slowly. You can directly translate that statement into "People are fallible. The Church is infallible"

The most poignant example was during all the press about abusive priests. People cried out for justice. The bishops got together and came up with a serious game plan and presented it to the Holy Father. The Holy Father sent it back and essentially said " Think about it some more". This response shocked Americans and the press. It was taken as an apathetic response. Nothing was further from the truth.

In the US we are so accustomed to instant gratification. If we're hungry we have food in the fridge. If we're driving, we can simply pull into a drive through down the block. We don't even have to get out of the car. Instant gratification has permeated so many aspects of our lives, we sometimes become tempted to apply it to the Church. But the Church won't do it. She will move slowly and methodically. She will move in the correct direction. The Church's timeline will not be our timeline. It is our timeline that has to be changed to accept the Church's.


People have to surrender to that fact otherwise they succumb to dispair.

[jasJis]

Serioiusly disappointing answers.

So American Bishops are suspect, I need to move to Rome?

As If I can't go to Rome and find wacky Bishops. Law has a job there you know.

I can't trust the Catholic Church in America? So the parish I should be attending because of geography, I'm not really a member of community. It's more drive thru for the Sacraments cause it's about me and not community where they hold hands, have lifeteen, play guitars, don't genuflect and recieve on the tongue, don't have an adoration chapels, looks 'protestant'. etc?

Edit to add:
[color="#FF0000"]Edited by Kilroy the Ninja: No need for rudeness. [/color]
Let's go a little further...

So Rome said take another look. the USCCB did and came up with something else and it was approved. Two years later and there are STILL Bishops who don't comply with the guidelines accorrding to the USCCB. What's up with that? Look at the stuff Mahoney has pulled with the priests in his diocese. (Not that he's my favorite whipping boy, but I read up on him a LOT recently and am more educated than him. I know there's more and I know it's not 100%.) Come on. There are standards for human behavior that even a lay person knows.

Talk to Micheal Filo here and he'll swear that even masturbation is a fundamental moral truth that should be known by prots and agnostics alike and that it's a mortal sin that'll condemn you.

I loved what Bro. Adam used to have by his avatar. "Will the real Catholic please stand up." My challenge is: "Will the real Catholic Church please identify itself." Since you guys all claim to be pretty darn good Catholics, let's have a consensus. I know I'm not, what about you or another poster here at phatmass? Catholic or not Catholic? Is Bush better than Kerry at being Christian? Is Kennedy as Catholic as Koran kissing JPII or "St." Simon? Coptic or Greek Orthodox or Roman?

Edited May 6, 2006 by Kilroy the Ninja

[Akalyte]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='973483' date='May 6 2006, 09:43 AM']
Why do abuses and misconceptions in the Church occur? There is a universal rule that gets overlooked quite often.
People move quickly. The Church moves slowly. You can directly translate that statement into "People are fallible. The Church is infallible"

The most poignant example was during all the press about abusive priests. People cried out for justice. The bishops got together and came up with a serious game plan and presented it to the Holy Father. The Holy Father sent it back and essentially said " Think about it some more". This response shocked Americans and the press. It was taken as an apathetic response. Nothing was further from the truth.

In the US we are so accustomed to instant gratification. If we're hungry we have food in the fridge. If we're driving, we can simply pull into a drive through down the block. We don't even have to get out of the car. Instant gratification has permeated so many aspects of our lives, we sometimes become tempted to apply it to the Church. But the Church won't do it. She will move slowly and methodically. She will move in the correct direction. The Church's timeline will not be our timeline. It is our timeline that has to be changed to accept the Church's.
People have to surrender to that fact otherwise they succumb to dispair.
[/quote]

OMG! The endtimes are here!!! I actually agree with you!!!

[Jaime]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='973501' date='May 6 2006, 10:19 AM']
OMG! The endtimes are here!!! I actually agree with you!!!
[/quote]


:

I told you we were on the same page on stuff!

[Akalyte]

Jas, here is what ive noticed and observed. Rome lays down all the rules, if followed there shouldnt be any divisions; but there are those in this country and other places that dont believe in those rules, so they make up there own or they simply ignore what Rome has taught.

Bishop gumbelton is a perfect example of this, along with many other bishops. The division is caused by people who just dont want to submit to any other authority but their own. This is a mindstate that became increasingy widespread during the sixties, but I believe it came from the protestant reformation, but it has done a number on american catholics since the 60's and 70's. Basically People have been becoming their own popes. This is the problem, the lay people were not given the keys to the Kingdom, the pope was. Yes alot of it has to do with "liberals" and "trads".

Both groups need to realize and recognize that they dont have the power nor the authority to bring about what they want. When Rome Speaks, end of story. The sooner people gets this, the sooner divisions will end. What is the body without the head? They (both liberals and trads) seperate themselves from the head by going against the magesterium. There is no unity without the Head. come back home.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='973511' date='May 6 2006, 10:33 AM']
Jas, here is what ive noticed and observed. Rome lays down all the rules, if followed there shouldnt be any divisions; but there are those in this country and other places that dont believe in those rules, so they make up there own or they simply ignore what Rome has taught.

Bishop gumbelton is a perfect example of this, along with many other bishops. The division is caused by people who just dont want to submit to any other authority but their own. This is a mindstate that became increasingy widespread during the sixties, but I believe it came from the protestant reformation, but it has done a number on american catholics since the 60's and 70's. Basically People have been becoming their own popes. This is the problem, the lay people were not given the keys to the Kingdom, the pope was. Yes alot of it has to do with "liberals" and "trads".

Both groups need to realize and recognize that they dont have the power nor the authority to bring about what they want. When Rome Speaks, end of story. The sooner people gets this, the sooner divisions will end. What is the body without the head? They (both liberals and trads) seperate themselves from the head by going against the magesterium. There is no unity without the Head. come back home.
[/quote]
you sound like your song

what's bound is bound
what's losed is losed

the heterodox fall apart ....

[amandaplus5]

The answer to all of these questions is this: The Roman Catholic Church is made up of humans.

Pretty much all of the questions listed dealt with humans screwing up Church teachings. It's not the teachings that are at fault, it's the humans who mess them up.

If you find the perfect church, don't join it, because it will cease to be perfect. This is because you are a human and will sin. Sin tarnishes perfection.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='973511' date='May 6 2006, 09:33 AM']
There is no unity without the Head. come back home.
[/quote]I'm not good enough. I can't find my way alone. The discordant "Church" is not a steady welcoming beacon. I am not abandoned by God. From where I'm at, being a Christian does not require being "Catholic". As Mother Teresa said, If you're going to be a buhdist, be a good one. If your'e going to be a hindu, be a good one. If you're going to be a muslim, be a good one.

Since I can't be a 'good Catholic' (whatever or whomever defines that) I'll at least be a good non-Catholic.