95 "thesis"

[littleflower+JMJ]

I am fruit, I am saved.  My journey was one that Catholicism could never have saved me through.  It is how I am, and without Luther's efforts, be the wrong or right, I would be blind.

of course, thats not what i meant circle. God brings good out of all bad.

what i see as no fruit, is the continued breakoff from the Church that Luther started when he did it himself, it did not stop there, but only grew worse, and now, there are so many denominations that there is nothing left of what he did, for there are so many denominations, none agree, all contradicting each other....now ppl are missing out, lacking, on the truth that rightfully belongs to them, truth they do not have....

"Lord, to whom shall we go?"

so God is not my Father. Closed book, end of story?

actually no, its not the end of the story. see mulls, what this is saying is, there is a fullnest of truth that can be found, and it is there that we find God in the most ulitmate level that none can compare, for it is through there that we truly see God, as He meant for us to come and know Him....and untill we find that, we are missing out, on truth, that He, himself gives to us.

please do not think i was or am judging you, nor condemning you, that is the last thing i would ever want to do. i apologize if my posts seem that way though. if they did come across that way, forgive me, i apologize.

God bless!

pax christi

+JMJ

[ironmonk]

I'm not sure who would want the Church as his mother anyway. Scripture is pretty clear that WE are the church.

::

Funny how no one believed that until after 1517.

It's quite sad how you cling to doctrine of men that has no basis before 1517.

How can that be what Christ started?

1 Tim 3:15But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Does Jesus guide us into division? No.

Which Church has been making disciples of all nations since the Apostles for 2000 years? Which Church could possibly have Jesus Himself guiding the Church? ....answer to both.... The Catholic Church

If the people where the Church, then how can that be true with all the disagreements on interpretation?

As for what the First Christians taught....

Pope Clement I

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Hegesippus

"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).

Irenaeus

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

"t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).

"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).

Tertullian

"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).

"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid., 21).

"But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid., 32).

"But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches], will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).

"Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).

Jerome

"Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians" (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine

"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

Pope Clement I

"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

Hermas

"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).

Dionysius of Corinth

"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).

"Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).

The Martyrs of Lyons

"And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches" (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])

"And the same martyrs too commended Irenaeus, already at that time [A.D. 175] a presbyter of the community of Lyons, to the said bishop of Rome, rendering abundant testimony to the man, as the following expressions show: ‘Once more and always we pray that you may rejoice in God, Pope Eleutherius. This letter we have charged our brother and companion Irenaeus to convey to you, and we beg you to receive him as zealous for the covenant of Christ’" (ibid., 5:4:1–2).

Irenaeus

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

Eusebius of Caesarea

"A question of no small importance arose at that time [A.D. 190]. For the parishes of all Asia [Minor], as from an older tradition held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior’s Passover. . . . But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world . . . as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast [of Lent] on no other day than on that of the resurrection of the Savior [sunday]. Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love. . . . [irenaeus] fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom" (Church History 5:23:1–24:11).

"Thus then did Irenaeus entreat and negotiate [with Pope Victor] on behalf of the peace of the churches—[irenaeus being] a man well-named, for he was a peacemaker both in name and character. And he corresponded by letter not only with Victor, but also with very many and various rulers of churches" (ibid., 24:18).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). ... On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

"Cyprian to [Pope] Cornelius, his brother. Greeting. . . . We decided to send and are sending a letter to you from all throughout the province [where I am] so that all our colleagues might give their decided approval and support to you and to your communion, that is, to both the unity and the charity of the Catholic Church" (Letters 48:1, 3 [A.D. 253]).

"Cyprian to Antonian, his brother. Greeting ... You wrote ... that I should forward a copy of the same letter to our colleague [Pope] Cornelius, so that, laying aside all anxiety, he might at once know that you held communion with him, that is, with the Catholic Church" (ibid., 55[52]:1).

"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men ... when the place of Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside [the Church]. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church" (ibid., 55[52]:8).

"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14).

Firmilian

"[Pope] Stephen ... boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. ... Stephen ... announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:17 [A.D. 253]).

Pope Julius I

"[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. ... Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. ... What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20–35).

Tatian the Syrian

"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it" (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]).

Tertullian

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James

"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

The Clementine Homilies

"[simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] ‘For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church’ [Matt. 16:18]" (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]).

Origen

"Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]" (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

"There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering" (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]).

"There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest and the flock clinging to their shepherd are the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priests of God, believing that they are

secretly [i.e., invisibly] in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and Catholic, is not split nor divided, but it is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere one to another" (ibid., 66[69]:8).

Firmilian

"But what is his error . . . who does not remain on the foundation of the one Church which was founded upon the rock by Christ [Matt. 16:18], can be learned from this, which Christ said to Peter alone: ‘Whatever things you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74[75]:16 [A.D. 253]).

"[Pope] Stephen . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. . . . [Pope] Stephen . . . announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (ibid., 74[75]:17).

Ephraim the Syrian

"[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Optatus

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan

"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

"It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]).

Pope Damasus I

"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. ... In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

Council of Ephesus

"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

Sechnall of Ireland

"Steadfast in the fear of God, and in faith immovable, upon [Patrick] as upon Peter the [irish] church is built; and he has been allotted his apostleship by God; against him the gates of hell prevail not" (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 3 [A.D. 444]).

Pope Leo I

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles. . . . He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445]).

Council of Chalcedon

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus] of the episcopate" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 451]).

Your Servant,

ironmonk

[littleflower+JMJ]

let me try to explain my st. augustine quote in a different way...please bear with me

lets say that two people go hiking on this beautiful mountain, both of your goal is to drink in the beautiful scenary around you because this is the most beautiful spot to climb.....your friend however, has already been to the top and seen the beauty that only one can see from the very top, and on this hike the other, whos this is his first time, stops halfway, and says, "lets stop here". the friend who's anxious to get to the top again, asks, "why?" the response..."oh its so beautiful here, halfway, i think this is good" but the one who's already been to the top before presses, never settling for less, and says, "we must make it to the top, its only there that you can see all the beauty of the land, all at once, its nothing like what this spot is, you do not know until you see it!!" at the friends urging, they continue to make it to the top, where both are breatheless from the scenary they have reached, the only spot that could have given them that sight, the beauty that can only be found when your at the top of the mountain.

that is how its like with our faith. untill we have reached that moutain (after much climbing) do we know how beautiful our God is, and know more about Him. the mountain of course being truth. for we are to stop halfway, we shall never truly see and know the true beauty that God shall reveal to us

just like that quote, its saying, until you know the truth, the way, the Church, it is there God is revealed like never before. where He is God of Truth......

i dont know if i made any sense, but thats what i was trying to get at.

thanks.

-_-

[Circle_Master]

*sigh* Why bother with a response. Ironmonk you apparently never either a) remember anything I say or b) don't care and are here merely for kicks and not thinking.

I clarified myself on numerous things, i.e. what I believe about the early church, and what protestants typically believe. What protestants use to interpretate Scripture (since we NEVER guess as you always say) and many other things. You refuse to acknowledge what I said and are so stubborn and set in your ways that your pride blinds the ability to reason.

If the people where the Church, then how can that be true with all the disagreements on interpretation?

You wrote this, and I still wonder how you can't smack yourself upside your own head at the irony. There are disagreements within Catholicism as well as Protestant churches, and so thus you disable yourself and say your own Catholic Church is not the true church. Yes your church has set beliefs that everyone in it agree's upon, but my church does as well. And yes, some in my church disagree, and yes some in yours do as well, which is why reform happens and changes the church. We however, I might say with a little pride acknowledge there to be a science to interpretation instead of just saying "do whatever you want! Jesus will help!". Why do I say that? Because I have heard many of you on this board criticize hermeneutics and say "only our priests can interpret Scripture because they are ordained!" Well sorry to burst this bubble, but many ordained priests who supposedly have apostolic authority have disagreed with your church as Luther was, and also all the priests in the East-West Schism for starters. You constantly contradict yourself and then say "well the church is just our beliefs and morals, so the people don't matter!" yet you base your entire church's beliefs off of the people as well. I think Bruce had a very good quote when he wrote

Scripture cannot be appealed to as the highest law because the Catholic Church tells us what scripture is what it really means. Tradition cannot be appealed to either as the highest law because the church doesn't agree officially on what tradition is. The fathers cannot be appealed to because there is no agreement on what fathers are authorative. God himself cannot be used as the Catholic Church does not agree on what God said, and claims to be the voice of God on earth. And since there is no definitive agreement, inside the Catholic Church itself there is NO ethical of doctrinal STANDARD tow which ANYONE can point to, the Catholic church ITSELF becomes autonomous, a complete LAW unto itself. With no one alive capable of understanding.

note: I had a higher view of the Catholic Church BEFORE coming to this board.

[hyperdulia again]

Circle,

Praise Jesus Hid Bride doesn't depend on our opinions to proclaim His Truth. There are no disagreements within Catholicism on Doctrinal matters to disagree is to be outside of Holy Church. Not understanding isn't the same thing as disagreeing.

Ironmonk,

I have difficult drawing a line between some of your responses and Circle's posts.

[ironmonk]

"only our priests can interpret Scripture because they are ordained!"

Wrong... No Catholic has said that. Individual Catholics can be wrong and disagree, but the Official Church teachings will never be wrong... Jesus said so, so did the Apostles, and all the ones that followed them. The Magisterium hands down the proper interpretation.

The ONLY Faith that looks like the Faith of the Bible, is the Catholic Church, and none other. Only the Catholic Church has all the Sacraments: Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, Forgiveness of Sins, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Holy Matrimony (see www.ScriptureCatholic.com)

The protestant definition of church did not exist until after 1517 AD, how can it be correct when Christ said that the Church would be guided in all truth? But, we don't even have to go to the protestant definition of 'Church'... we can simply look at what the first Christians taught... THE SACRAMENTS.... which every prot church disregards at least one of the Sacraments... So... HOW CAN ANY PROT CHURCH HAVE BEEN GUIDED BY THE Holy Spirit IF THEY DO NOT LOOK LIKE THE FAITH THAT HAS BEEN AROUND 2000 YEARS?

A little logic can get you a long way.

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

John 14:16

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,

17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Matt. 18:18

"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"

Matt 5:13

"You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.

15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.

hyper...

I don't care.... I suggest you let the other Mediators of Meh worry about my posts.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[hyperdulia again]

Ironmonk, THAT was a personal attack. I was not speaking to you as a moderator who wonders if you even bother to read other members posts before stringing together an endless stream of non-sequiturs, but as a fellow poster who didn't have the foggiest notion as to what exactly you were responding to.

Many Years

[Robyn]

there are so many denominations, none agree, all contradicting each other....

I am yet to see that...

it's like driving a car. I choose Ford, but a friend has a Holden...they both do the same job, but the shell is different. There may be differences in the quality of the transmission, motor, paint etc...but they're still cars, and I have NO PROBLEM SWAPPING to the Holden if the Ford stops working, or is in the workshop.

Would somebody say a car is not a "true car" if it was an auto, and the first transmission was manual?

Just some thoughts...

[littleflower+JMJ]

I am yet to see that...

it's like driving a car. I choose Ford, but a friend has a Holden...they both do the same job, but the shell is different. There may be differences in the quality of the transmission, motor, paint etc...but they're still cars, and I have NO PROBLEM SWAPPING to the Holden if the Ford stops working, or is in the workshop.

Would somebody say a car is not a "true car" if it was an auto, and the first transmission was manual?

Just some thoughts...

robyn im a chevy girl.

why?

cuz their built like a rock.

[foundsheep]

Hey thats not bad Flowery. :loco:

[ironmonk]

I am yet to see that...

it's like driving a car. I choose Ford, but a friend has a Holden...they both do the same job, but the shell is different. There may be differences in the quality of the transmission, motor, paint etc...but they're still cars, and I have NO PROBLEM SWAPPING to the Holden if the Ford stops working, or is in the workshop.

Would somebody say a car is not a "true car" if it was an auto, and the first transmission was manual?

Just some thoughts...

The teachings of Christ were quite clear.... One Faith... not 2 or 34,000.

One Faith that will be like a city on a mountain which cannot be hidden for all time. (St. Matt 5:13-17, St. Matt 28:18-20, Epesians 4:1-6)

Built on Peter and never to be overcome. (St. Matt 16:18-19 - St. John 1:42 - St. John 21:15-17)

Guided by God Himself... Will be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth and be the only One to have the Authority to teach the Word. (St. John 14:16-18, St. Matt 18:17, 2 Timothy 3:14-16, 2 Timothy 2:2, Ephesians 3:5)

All who leave it will do so to their own destruction, now if someone leaves out of ignorance or is not a member out of ignorance then they can still be saved. (Acts 20:30, 1 Peter 3:15-17, 1 John 2:18-21, St. Luke 10:16)

The Faith is deep... not shallow like a car... a better car analogy would be you can have a whole car or you can have a car that has missing parts, or some cars have square wheels instead of circular wheels... Some cars don't have a windsheild so when driving you have the keep your eyes closed... some don't have a steering wheel and you don't know where your going... some come full of rusty holes and it gets cold or too hot.... but only a whole car can get you there safely.

Your Servant,

ironmonk

[Circle_Master]

The protestant definition of church did not exist until after 1517 AD, how can it be correct when Christ said that the Church would be guided in all truth? But, we don't even have to go to the protestant definition of 'Church'... we can simply look at what the first Christians taught... THE SACRAMENTS.... which every prot church disregards at least one of the Sacraments... So... HOW CAN ANY PROT CHURCH HAVE BEEN GUIDED BY THE Holy Spirit IF THEY DO NOT LOOK LIKE THE FAITH THAT HAS BEEN AROUND 2000 YEARS?

Here ya go.

Acts 5:11 "Fear came upon all the Church" - that is obviously speaking of the teachings?

Acts 8:11 "the church which was at Jerusalem" "the church"? Are there more? Oh... maybe "the church" is just speaking of one local church, implying there is a universal one!

Acts 8:3 "He made havock of the church" of the church... must be technical usage, for the entire thing...

seems my interpretation does exist before 1517 A.D. (I can get a lot more verses, but I limit it so you will read it )

Yes I believe the Spirit is in Christians, and I believe Jesus is with us, that is why it says "in Christ" 80,000 times in the epistles. And yes, whatever Peter binds on earth will be bound in heaven. I also agree we are the salt on the earth. There is no point to you posting these.

is there one faith between bruce, mulls, and I. yes. Is there one faith between my catholic friend at home, and my methodist friends? yes. Do we agree on all the fine points of doctrine, no. Do Catholics, no. Is there one faith in protestant churches, yes. See, lots of times Catholics have a hard time evaluating what one faith is in protestant churches. They group all of the heretical ones with the ones which agree on salvation (which is 90%) and say "see! there is no one faith!". I guess you also know we also kick out those 10%. You know, the universal churches, the pragmatic ones, the "health and wealth gospel" ones. We have a consensus as well. The Evangelical Society helps with that.

And a question. There is one faith in referral to the church. Yes. however, if you consider church like those verses imply, there must be one faith because only believers are in it. This doesn't imply a unified institution anymore than "one car" implies a unified car factory.

[cmotherofpirl]

Nope.

THere might be one faith between you and mulls and bruce, or there might not be.

But it is not the same faith as the Church, unless you are in agreement with all the councils and are in communoin with the Bishop of Rome.

You might have pieces of the pie, but the Church has the bakery.

[Circle_Master]

well, I think I agree with most of the first 7 ecumenical councils. (thats how many before the east-west schism right?) I'm not sure how much I agree on the filloque controversy, or even if the Son should procede from anyone. It is bad semantics imo, but I haven't done much research on it.

[Bruce S]

Protestantism started hundreds of years BEFORE Luther.

Of course Wycliffe isn't on your rolodex, but he should be.

Good man, and Huss too, don't forget him.

They were the precoursers to Luther, and we owe a tremedous debt to them.

AND those corrupt Popes too, without the massive corruption none of this would be happening.

So, in an odd way, your lousy leadership made this all a reality.

THANK YOU bad Popes, thank you.

See, I just gave praise to the Papacy.

Happy New Year, and pray for me on this Holy Day of Obligation.

Just don't do a Hail Mary, I would prefer an Our Father if you would.

Best.