95 "thesis"

[hyperdulia again]

*breathe* 1,2,3 *breathe* 1,2,3

The Incarnation happened in the womb of the Virgin. Both of the natures of Christ were held to her most holy breast. She was, is, and ever shall be the Mother of God.

Daughter of God the Father, pray for us.

Mother of God the Son, pray for us.

Spouse of the Most Holy Spirit of God, pray for us.

Mother of all Christians, New Eve, pray for us.

Most Holy Tabernacle of the Living God, pray for us.

Ark of the New Covenant, pray for us.

Mary, Queen of My Heart, I exalt thee.

Mother, Cover me in your blue mantle of Peace and help me to always by thy intercession glorify the Incarnate Word of God. May all come to love thee as mother.

[Circle_Master]

I'm sorry Hyper. You know as well as I that we disagree on this one though. I see Mary as most blessed among women for what God choose her for, and that is where it ends for me.

[Dave]

Luther loved your church...the church didn't love him. What a man! To go against all his security to find peace within himself. We don't have to agree with him, but it's nice to see men of his courage!

Courageous? Or just plain stupid? I don't call changing teachings coming from God just to salve one's conscience courageous.

[littleflower+JMJ]

I stand by my comment. I don't fully support Luther, but he knew...to know does not mean to agree with.

Luther loved your church...the church didn't love him. What a man! To go against all his security to find peace within himself. We don't have to agree with him, but it's nice to see men of his courage!

if Luther loved his church, he would not have left. but he did leave. st. francis also saw that the church needed help, but did he leave? no, he stayed and made it better. luther was misguided, he twisted things for his own agenda and took the opportunity to do so when he had a chance to. He is nothing to admire, for when i see him i see no courage, i see someone who chose not to follow Christ. His 95 thesis were nothing, it was his selfish reasons that bought him so far.

your Catholicism is showing through . Not that I wouldn't expect it to, I am at a Catholic Apologetics board.

and perhaps you also forgotten that as catholics we honor the Blessed Mother, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Mary, Our Mother Ever Virgin, yes, yours and mine.

-divided the Body of Christ - Perhaps, or restored it.

-called Jesus Christ a liar - definately not, said the church was misdirected yes, but to prevail is complete domination. There is always a remnant, that much is promised.

-spat in brides face - well maybe if the Catholic Church was his bride.

restore what? i see no fruit from what Luther did but forever stray the many ppl who would follow him, far from the truth, far from God's One Church. why would Jesus establish a Church that was no good? to later have someone restore it? The Catholic Church is Church that Jesus established. and Luther proves that himself when today we see many many denominations due to that outbreakoff. for after Luther, more and more would break off, each claiming "courage" but none having it. when did leading ppl astray become a hero's work?

as for those other parts, i shall pray for you. for right now i do not trust myself to type.......

lack of respect at the Mother of God? I know no mother of God, I know a vessel chosen, and a mother of Jesus. Sometimes I think you guys actually believer her to have produced God (although I know it isn't true).

you should not speak of something, or of someone that you do not know. do you think God would create the BLessed Mother to just after giving birth to Jesus was forgotten, cast aside or ignored? No, never! the BLessed Mother has one the highest roles ever given by God, for She is and always will be a part of our relationship with Jesus. you can not look at the moon without looking at the stars as well.......that is how it is with the BLessed Mother.....

if you read my signature "He who does not have the Church as his mother,

does not have God as his Father."

i hope you shall read it and know that if we do not know the one who nursed him, cared for him, dried his tears, loved him, then we do not know Jesus. for it is through Mary, Our Mother, taht we see Jesus in a such a higher level that none can compare. do not be afraid of loving Mary, for Her only wish is lead you to Her Son, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Amen 

[littleflower+JMJ]

you want to see courage?

read upon the martyrs, and all the saints, the ones who gave their lives for Christ, dying for their faith, at the mercy of their offenders, to forgive them, all for the love of Christ.

you want to see Love for Christ, read about the greatest saints. who we all, hope to someday be in heaven with.

to live their faith in complete truth, to follow Jesus, His Church, and not this world.

that is courage.

pax christi

+JMJ

Salve Regina, Mater misericordiae. Vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve. Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae. Ad te Suspiramus, gementes et flentes in hac lacrimarum valle. Eia ergo, Advocata nostra, illos tuos misericordes oculos ad nos converte. Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui, nobis post hoc exsilium ostende. O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria.

Ora pro nobis, Sancta Dei Genetrix.

Ut digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi.

[ironmonk]

your Catholicism is showing through . Not that I wouldn't expect it to, I am at a Catholic Apologetics board.

-divided the Body of Christ - Perhaps, or restored it.

-called Jesus Christ a liar - definately not, said the church was misdirected yes, but to prevail is complete domination. There is always a remnant, that much is promised.

-spat in brides face - well maybe if the Catholic Church was his bride.

-lack of respect at the Mother of God? I know no mother of God, I know a vessel chosen, and a mother of Jesus. Sometimes I think you guys actually believer her to have produced God (although I know it isn't true).

I still don't like people mocking one's desire however. I find it better to have a desire albeit misdirected, than to have none and merely say you believe the correct thing. I guess that would be James theology showing through as he says that true religion is to care for the widows.

If Jesus was God, then Mary was the Mother of God.

God was in Mary's womb. Mary gave birth to God. That is what makes her Mother of God.

Read Luke 1:28 slowly.

It's really pathetic how you fail to study... Christianity is not a philosophical problem that you and many other prots think it to be.

Jesus and the Apostles were real.... their teachings where real... they can be seen from 33 AD all the way to today.... ONLY in the Catholic Church

If you are not going to provide writings prior to 400 AD to back what you claim Christianity to be... then just go away. I understand why you don't, because if you did provide writings prior to 400 AD, you would be shooting yourself in the foot.

Irenaeus

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus

"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David" (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

"It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’" (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria

"They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).

Methodius

"While the old man [simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

"Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid., 14).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius

"The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?" (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz

"If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

"As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing" (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

"Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God" (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).

Come with something real, instead of your speculation. The only reason why you have your stance is because a doctrine of man was first handed to you and you have failed to study from the beginning of Christianity.

Your Servant,

ironmonk

[Circle_Master]

Often times on this board I feel as if I am writing a different dialect of english and perhaps everyone just doesn't understand the words I write. hm. Maybe it's just that you guys are still so prickily you look for anything to discredit someone of they have "non-catholic" in their name.

I'll respond to this, cause well, I do not deny Mary was the mother of Jesus, so Ironmonks post was worthless and other ones. As for reading courage in the martyr's and saints, I do enjoy reading about them. However, what sparked this is we were talking about Martin Luther, not martyrs and saints.

littleflower- i see no fruit from what Luther did

I am fruit, I am saved. My journey was one that Catholicism could never have saved me through. It is how I am, and without Luther's efforts, be the wrong or right, I would be blind.

you should not speak of something, or of someone that you do not know. do you think God would create the BLessed Mother to just after giving birth to Jesus was forgotten, cast aside or ignored? No, never! the BLessed Mother has one the highest roles ever given by God, for She is and always will be a part of our relationship with Jesus. you can not look at the moon without looking at the stars as well.......that is how it is with the BLessed Mother.....

She wasn't forgotten cast aside or ignored. I am grateful for her, and Scripture talks of her many times. Wouldn't that crazy, to be mentioned in Scripture? I suppose I don't believe all that other stuff because well, it isn't seen in Scripture. It's a little odd that the immaculate conception and the assumption are the only things ever spoke ex-cathedra.

[mulls]

if you read my signature "He who does not have the Church as his mother,

does not have God as his Father."

that's pretty messed up.

so God is not my Father. Closed book, end of story?

i doubt it.

have you ever said that to the face of an evagelical? if you ever do, i would warn you to duck really fast. :unsure:

[Circle_Master]

I'm not sure who would want the Church as his mother anyway. Scripture is pretty clear that WE are the church.

[cmotherofpirl]

If Jesus was God, and Mary His mother, than Mary can be called the Mother of God. THis does not imply she was mother of his divine nature, but she was definitely mother to His human nature.Theokotos.

You again imply that everything is in scripture and we know it is not. Luke must have spent long hours with MAry hearing stories about his birth and childhood. His testimony to her, and the testimony of the early Fathers show how important Mary was. THerefore Iron's quotes are important to show that Mary has been uniquely honored from the beginning of the Church. THe timing of a declaration has nothing to do with the origin of a teaching. CAtholics take the long view of history. for a thousand years are as a watch in the night.

[Circle_Master]

oh, I bet there were quite a few things going around the first few centuries. However, I just turn to Scripture and I see within itself promises that Scripture will never fail. For tradition? Never.

[PedroX]

I believe it was Martin Luther who said "If you do not have the church as your mother, you can not have God as your father" He had realized that by breaking down people's faith structure they took church much less seriously than they had before. He wanted to emphasize that church was important. Many evangelicals believe this quote to be true. They just believe it refers to the "universal" church. So, yes, Mulls I have said this to evangelicals. In fact when I was an evangelical I was fond of saying it often.

peace...

[cmotherofpirl]

oh, I bet there were quite a few things going around the first few centuries. However, I just turn to Scripture and I see within itself promises that Scripture will never fail. For tradition? Never.

You forget Scripture is simply written Tradition that was linked to an Apostle. THe Early Church fathers were those people who were taught by the Apostles. If you ignor those explanations of what the Apostles taught, then you say Church teaching stopped there and negate all councils, creeds etc. THis is simply not true.

[Circle_Master]

PedroX, actually, I think that quote is from Augustine, not Luther

cmom,

You forget Scripture is simply written Tradition that was linked to an Apostle. THe Early Church fathers were those people who were taught by the Apostles. If you ignor those explanations of what the Apostles taught, then you say Church teaching stopped there and negate all councils, creeds etc. THis is simply not true.

I didn't forget it, I don't believe it. Apostles knew they were writing Scripture. That is why you can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 that Peter refers to Paul's writings as Scripture. I also know the power of sin, and that knowledge doesn't reduce the corruption of who we are. Some of the Early Church fathers may have known much, however, if they weren't Jews they first weren't grounded in the OT which made choosing elders for Paul so easy through Galatia. You also see much of your doctrine take shape a few centuries after the Apostles. When the image has faded, and when greed and pride begun taking ahold again. No one man is perfect, and you often assume that the church fathers could have no error, or could not falter. We see early on Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism and Augustinianism. Interesting that these three things, when they involve so simple a doctrine as "did God choose us, or us Him" was never revealed by the Apostles.

[nippy316]

This might have something to do with the Catholic mass not being a fundraising campaign.

Well said. :)