How confident is the church

[Guest Rick777]

Nice pic!

[Laudate_Dominum]

The primary pain is a pain of soul, not the pain of sense. The reason the suffering of purgatory is greater is because a person's conscience is illuminated and they've tasted of God and actually realize the horror of sin and its effects in light of the absolute, indescribable goodness, holiness and love of God. This realization, I suppose, causes an agony that we cannot appreciate yet. Also having a certain sense of what the joys of heaven and God's presence are like and yet still being deprived of it because of sin. And the strangest thing about purgatory is that the suffering soul wills this to be so out of sorrow and compunction. There is a full longing to be conformed to Christ so that one might see the Father.
This is how I see it. We do know a good bit about purgatory from revelation, but there is still much that is mysterious about it and thus there is room for speculation. This is why different saints might describe it in different ways.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='976819' date='May 9 2006, 08:06 PM']
Goodness then.

Does that mean ALL those paintings in Catholic churches I saw on my THREE trips on the relic tours including that tourist trap on the Tiber were LYING then?

Sheesh. I need new lenses on my Nikon, I honestly could have SWORN that those were EVIL TORMENTS including fire and torture that were depicted and used to shake down the pew classes for suitable emoluents to build those massive palaces I spent so much time in.

You mean that Dante was lying?

And all those MASTERS who were commisioned by the Popes and Bishops were just "carried away with active imaginations?"

[url="http://www.sufferingsouls.com/purgatory-pergatory-purgetory.jpg"]http://www.sufferingsouls.com/purgatory-pe...y-purgetory.jpg[/url]

[img]http://www.marys-touch.com/truth/purgatory.JPG[/img]
[/quote]
Hell is eternal separation from God, which does include the everlasting fires of hell, which are torment and pain. Those who go to hell choose it, and they choose eternal suffering at the hands of satan.

Purgatory is also pain and suffering, but because of the purifying fires which clean our souls for heaven.

[ironmonk]

Eutychus,
It seems that you might be misunderstanding individual's opinions for Church teachings.

[quote]Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of LIMBO.[/quote]

Limbo was a fact at one time, that was the place of souls who had to wait for Christ to die and enter Heaven before they could.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm[/url]

Now, it's questionable if there is a need for limbo... We do not know for fact what happens to unbaptized babies when they die... we trust in God's mercy, but they could be in limbo.

[quote]Then one day.....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of 12 hour fasting before Communion.[/quote]

Disciplines change... faith and morals do not. Disciplines are practices, 12 hour fasting or one hour fasting are practices/disciplines. The time is ment for reflextion and examination of conscience.

[quote]Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that Muslims were pagans bound for hell.[/quote]

The Catholic Church never taught that Muslims were bound for hell.

[b]Romans 2:12 [/b]
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
[b]13 [/b] For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
[b]14 [/b] For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
[b]15 [/b] They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
[b]16 [/b] on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.


[quote]Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that the Latin Mass was eternal.[/quote]

This was not a teaching. The Mass has changed since the first one on the night of the last supper... and can change. In St. Matt. 16:18-19 Christ gives the authority to bind and loose to the office of Peter.


[quote]Then one day...

As dedicated Catholics, we were TOLD that PURGETORY was forever, real and would NEVER be changed.[/quote]

Purgatory was never taught that it was forever.

Purgatory from the Catechism, The Official Teaching of the Catholic Church:

The name "Purgatory" was given to something that was taught before Christ came to the world.... The Catholic Church just gave a name to something that existed before the time of Christ & the Apostles.


[b]III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory[/b]

[b]1030 [/b]
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.


[b]1031 [/b]
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608


[b]1032 [/b]
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:


Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611


607: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608: St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609: 2 Macc 12:46.
611: St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5.


In Scripture....
1 Peter 1:6
In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials,
7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Isaiah 6:5
Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.
7 He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."


Matt 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.


Rev 20:13

The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.
Death and Hades (not the pool of fire) gave up their dead and they were judged according to their deeds.... THEN Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire (HELL as we know it)

Death and Hades is not Hell, and is not Heaven... then what could it be??? The Catholic Church calls it Purgatory.

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
Rev 21:27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Nothing Unclean can enter Heaven, but not all sin is deadly (1 John 5:16) therefore we must have our sin purged (Isaiah 6:6-7) before we enter Heaven if we are guilty of lesser sins.



[quote]Then one day, it went from WORSE punishement than hell, to merely a place of seperation from God.[/quote]

The Church does not teach that. Some bad theologians do, and they go against Church teachings when they say falsehoods like that.


IV. Hell


1033
We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."


1034
Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna," of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616


1035
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.


1036
The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618


Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619


1037
God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621


Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm[/url]





Thank God for the Internet because now you can see what the Church really teaches without having to buy a Catechism.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[dairygirl4u2c]

Actually, the Muslim thing is more complicated that you, me, or anyone here has gotten into. Here is a pretty comprehensive and impressive defense from a Catholic on the issue.
[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592440088/103-8421363-4430262?v=glance&n=283155"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159244008...glance&n=283155[/url]

But even that book has some shortfalls when you read it that I could get into, but no one here knows enough about it to discuss.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

I believe so...

We need to be clean and pure as white as snow...

At least that was what was drilled in my brain at CCD...

[thessalonian]

The question I have is how sure are protestants against purgatory? You see Protestants believe in imputed righteousness rather than infused righteousness. Then after one has Christ's righteousness imputed to them and are justified they begin the process of sanctification which makes them actually pure over there lifetime. Though they in fact admit that noone reaches this state of perfection by the end of life. There's a problem there. As was stated above the Bible says that "nothing unclean shall enter". So if we are not fully purified at death something logically has to give.

Let's take an example. Billy Graham is riding a bus. A young man gets on and sits down next to him. This man is a druggy, lives with a woman who he cheats on, steals, lies, drunk all the time, etc. etc. He's among the lost. But Billy's warmth and his gospel message convert the man. Just in time, the bus goes off the road, over a cliff and both die. Well Billy has been through long years of sanctification. He has no desire for alcohol, drugs, extramarital relations, etc. etc. . Had the other man lived he still would have trouble dumping the booze down the sink or not smoking that dope he has in the closet. He doesn't have the strength to move out on that woman he is using, even though he knows now it is wrong. He would stuggle with his new faith. I agree they both go to heaven but one has gone through much sanctification and the other has not. Something has got to give for the one who has not.

I went the rounds for a week with a guy who finally said that Christ will purify the man by his grace. Amen, that's all purgatory is about. No one has given me a good answer that comes close to resolving this dilema. Snow covered dung still stinks and there isn't any in heaven. So tell me, who is more sure about purgatory?

[Andreas E.]

As a Baptist, I struggle with the concept of purgatory, as 2 Cor 3 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There's nothing in between. I can see where you are coming from that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as it is scriptural as well. You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow?

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='978205' date='May 11 2006, 02:09 PM']
As a Baptist, I struggle with the concept of purgatory, as 2 Cor 3 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There's nothing in between. I can see where you are coming from that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as it is scriptural as well. You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow?
[/quote]

Perhaps you might find St Thomas Aquinas' treatment of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/700100.htm"]Purgatory[/url] and [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/600200.htm"]The Quality of Souls Who Expiate Actual Sin or Its Punishment in Purgatory[/url]?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='978205' date='May 11 2006, 09:09 AM']
As a Baptist, I struggle with the concept of purgatory, as 2 Cor 3 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There's nothing in between. I can see where you are coming from that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as it is scriptural as well. You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow?
[/quote]

I totally understand where you are coming from.

The Church does not teach that purgatory is exactly a "place", but something that happens.

Since no sin my enter Heaven, not all sin is deadly, and we have to pay every last penny, then if we die with a small sin that is not deadly it must be cleansed from us before we can enter Heaven. The Scriptures speak of that we'll be saved by fire... obviously this cannot be talking about hell because hell is eternal... so we Catholics call it "purgatory", it means to "purge"... just as in Isiah 6:5.

Please take another look at my post above, I have the Catechism quoted and a few bible verses.

Also, the teaching goes back to before the time of Christ & the Apostles... the Jews didn't have a name for it. The Mourners Kaddish was to be prayed for 11 months for a departed parent in atonement for their soul. The Catholic Church came up with the name "purgatory" when the teaching was beginning to be questioned, the Bishops of the Church gathered in council (just like in Acts) to discuss matters of the faith.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='978205' date='May 11 2006, 08:09 AM']
As a Baptist, I struggle with the concept of purgatory, as 2 Cor 3 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There's nothing in between. I can see where you are coming from that nothing unclean can enter heaven, as it is scriptural as well. You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow?
[/quote]


What I am reading from you is infused righteousness which is what Catholicism teaches. Are you sure this is what your Baptist Church teaches? Did a google on baptist and imputed righteousness and I got alot of hits. Purgatory is not neccessarily out of the prescence of the Lord first of all. It is not neccessarily a long duration of time either. It is described in that manner to relate it to how we think in this life to help us relate. But that is not Church dogma by any means. The fact is that something has to give when someone dies and is not fully sanctified. Do you agree?

[prose]

[quote]You can reconcile this when you think that the moment the sinner receives Christ all sin is wiped out, you know, going from scarlet red to white as snow[/quote]

Well, yes. Because we still have sin after baptism. We all still struggle with sin. Purgatory cleanses us of anything that may be of this world before we leave this earth.

[zealousrap]

[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20040206000243/http://catholicapologetics.info/Purgator.htm"]http://web.archive.org/web/20040206000243/...fo/Purgator.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp[/url]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='976430' date='May 9 2006, 02:20 PM']
Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of LIMBO.

Then one day.....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality of 12 hour fasting before Communion.

Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that Muslims were pagans bound for hell.

Then one day....

Yes, brought up Catholic, we were TOTALLY secure in the reality that the Latin Mass was eternal.

Then one day...

As dedicated Catholics, we were TOLD that PURGETORY was forever, real and would NEVER be changed.

Then one day, it went from WORSE punishement than hell, to merely a place of seperation from God.

Then one day....
[/quote]

haha, so true so true. Although I don't think the 12 hour fast actually falls under doctrine and unchangeable, and purgatory will no longer exist at the end of the world(for there will be no purpose for it). Neither will Limbo at that time for that matter. But I agree with the rest of it for sure.

Edited May 26, 2006 by goldenchild17