Endorsing Sin, Even Venial Is Going Against Church Teachings

[ironmonk]

[quote name='St.MGoretti' post='969667' date='May 3 2006, 12:39 PM']
I would like to agree with this comment as well as adding my own opinion. Did Jesus not go against the laws of his time? Did He not say that we should love above all and to help others even if that means we give something of ourselves for them? There is no one on this earth who can judge the actions and the souls of others, only God can place judgement on what is right or wrong. Jesus helped Mary Magdellan from being stoned because she was possesed by devils. Then it was against the law to help such people. He also cured a crippled women on the sabbath, and this is only one example of how He had performed miracles on the sabbath, and at that time this was also illegal. Are you telling me that Jesus was sinning by helping her and healing other? Didn't He say "He who has not sinned cast the first stone"? Laws are there to regulate our economy and other such things, not to regulate the position of the soul. Yes there are things that are obviously wrong and sinful, but there are things that are sinful by not doing even if to do them you are going against the law. Again one can not judge the position of anothers soul. If Jesus went against laws to help others and you are saying that to go against the law is sinful then you are claiming that Jesus himself had sinned. You might want to rethink your accusation.
[/quote]


You too would be wrong. Breaking the law is a sin.

To Love is not to sin.

Jesus was God. He is the Law... and the laws He delt with where not civil.

Actions can be judged by man. Hearts cannot be judged by man. This is not about heart, this is about actions. Breaking the law is a sin. As a Catholic you must accept that teaching or you are going against the Catholic Church teachings.

You imply things that are not even there. Jesus did not sin, he did not break the law... he fulfilled the law... he explained how deep the law was. It appears that you are not too familar with the Scriptures to be trying to use the points you are trying to use... or you are assuming that I am ignorant of the Scriptures.... I assure you, I am not.. I've been reading them over and over, taking notes, and meditating on them for the past 27 years... since I was six... I started taking notes and grouping verses about age 12.

God teaches us right from wrong with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church Magisterium knows right from wrong. What the Catholic Church binds on earth is bound in Heaven and what the Church looses on earth is loosed in Heaven... The Catholic Church has spoken on it and it's not debatable... It is a sin to break the law, and those who support and endorse sin go against Catholic Church Teachings.

There is no need to sin any any situation. We should rather die than do the smallest sin... that is how serious sin is. It is a shame that so many people have lost their sense of sin.


God Bless.

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='969870' date='May 3 2006, 01:56 PM']
You too would be wrong. Breaking the law is a sin.

God Bless.
[/quote]

Iron monk, you do come of as iron. Maybe its a good thing, but it can appear cold and heartless.

I am not trying to challenge your opinion, and the facts you are putting forth.

But, i have learned you cannot convince people all the time with cold hard facts. You also need to learn to win their hearts. Maybe a smiley face or a joke might help your position.

now back to napping.
SHALOM

[jasJis]

Toughen up, cup-cakes. What a bunch of babies wanting to live in 'fairyland'. It's okay to be firm and committed if it's your personal opinion, but heaven forbid somebody be firm and committed if you disagree with them. Tell yourself the joke while reading i-monk's posts if that's what you need.

[jasJis]

[quote name='MC IMaGiNaZUN' post='969908' date='May 3 2006, 02:01 PM']
Iron monk, you do come of as iron. Maybe its a good thing, but it can appear cold and heartless.

I am not trying to challenge your opinion, and the facts you are putting forth.

But, i have learned you cannot convince people all the time with cold hard facts. You also need to learn to win their hearts. Maybe a smiley face or a joke might help your position.

now back to napping.
SHALOM[/quote]Hey, MC. Wake up. Ironmon is putting out the cold hard facts to win their minds. We need a joke or a smilie from you to win their hearts.


hmmmmmm

[Jaime]

Excuse me but "don't sin" as a cold hard fact is helpful?

Hardly.

Perhaps, and this is just a crazy suggestion, instead of the "don't sin" statement. (which is not exactly revelatory) Folks could talk about HOW to avoid sin. Which takes a bit more dialogue than "don't do it".

The example listed, was for no one since no one endorsed anything but feeding illegals. To which he's in agreement. Who on the board was advocating hiring illegals or setting up smuggle runs across the border? No one.

Edited May 3, 2006 by jaime

[AngelofJesus]

IM,

Do you see giving food and water to illegals as sinning?

[Socrates]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='970097' date='May 3 2006, 04:43 PM']
IM,

Do you see giving food and water to illegals as sinning?
[/quote]
This is not and never was what the law was about. (See the following article from the Catholic News Agency, which I had previously posted in another thread.)
[quote][b]Immigration bill does not criminalize assistance efforts, say legislators[/b]

Washington DC, Apr. 07, 2006 (CNA) - A group of legislators are striving to assure the U.S. Catholic bishops that a new and much criticized immigration reform bill “does not criminalize humanitarian assistance efforts … nor did it intend to.”

The bill, they wrote in an April 5th letter, is the “House's good-faith effort to bring human traffickers to justice” but it “will not be the final product on this issue.”

The letter was sent by House Judiciary Committee chairman F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. (R-Wis.), House Homeland Security Committee chairman Peter King (R-N.Y.), and House International Relations chairman Henry Hyde (R-Ill.).

“We can assure you, just as under current law, religious organizations would not have to ‘card’ people at soup kitchens and homeless shelters under the House bill's anti-smuggling provisions,” they wrote.

“Prosecutors would no sooner prosecute good Samaritans for ‘assisting’ illegal immigrants to remain in the U.S. under the House bill than they would prosecute such persons for ‘encouraging’ illegal immigrants to remain in the U.S. under current law, which has existed for nearly 20 year,” they continued.

The three legislators said they supported H.R. 4437 in December because it would be a solid first step in preventing illegal immigration, helping law enforcement agents gain control of the borders, and re- establishing respect for immigration law.

They “wholeheartedly concur” with the bishops’ assessment that “human trafficking is a modern-day form of slavery,” they wrote.

However, the “current alien-smuggling laws are inadequate in the fight against these sophisticated coyotes and snakeheads who rape, rob, beat, and abandon their human ‘cargo,’ and also poison our communities through drug trafficking,” the legislators argued.

They said border-area U.S. Attorneys have asked for the tools in H.R. 4437 to aid them in their fight against alien smuggling.

The legislators promised to keep communication open with the bishops as Congress considers the issue. They also said they remain committed to reducing the penalty for illegal presence in the U.S. from a felony to a misdemeanor.

[url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6438"]http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6438[/url][/quote]

Mahoney and his liberal followers on here are merely using this law as an excuse to play politics by falsely claiming that it criminalizes giving food and water to those who need it.

This has all been dealt with before in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=50253"]this thread.[/url]

[cappie]

From Roberta Bondi's "Memories of God"

"What I read that day was an exhortation to those early monks not to criticize or judge one another, but rather, to treat one another with the gentleness of our heavenly Father, who especially loves the ones the world despises, and who is always so much more willing than human beings to make allowances for sin, because God alone understands our circumstances, the depths of our temptations, and the extent of our sufferings."

I love this quote. I love the realization that while [b]God certainly isn't endorsing sin, [/b]God is far more understanding of our struggles, pressures, failings and misdirection than most people are. And this is so easy to see isn't it? Someoen is well known, well respected... then a skeleton from a closet comes out and suddenly no one wants to talk to him or her, no one really trusts them anymore, and no one wants them in a visible role in the church. And we'll justify our response with all kinds of theological claims, but the God-honest truth is, we don't have the kind of compassion, understanding, acceptance and desire for intimacy that God does.

[jasJis]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='970097' date='May 3 2006, 04:43 PM']
IM,

Do you see giving food and water to illegals as sinning?[/quote]
AofJ,
I don't mean to be rude, but it's going to come off that way. Did you read his posts, or just skim them because you feel you have the gist of what he's saying?

[quote]The Catholic Church teaches that we are NOT allowed to do any evil that results in a greater good. ALL sin is evil.[/quote]

[quote]There is no need to sin any any situation. We should rather die than do the smallest sin... that is how serious sin is. It is a shame that so many people have lost their sense of sin.[/quote]

[quote]No one is talking about not feeding the hungry... We are talking about what is a sin and what is not. To break a just law is a sin, does not matter what kind of law it is. It is a federal offense to help illegal immigrants stay in America... this means we cannot give them a job, encourage them to stay in America, and give them a home to live in... [b]this does not mean we can't give them a place to sleep on their way back to where they came from, this does not mean that we cannot give them food when they are hungry during their journey home[/b]... Otherwise we break the law and therefore we sin.[/quote]I've often made comments to i-monk about HOW he presents things, but WHAT he's saying isn't usually the issue. Whether you like HOW he says things, please read WHAT he's saying. That's a good rule to follow before making a comment on what ANYONE has posted. READ the posts. Your comments would then be a contribution and welcome, even if you disagree.

[hierochloe]

What if one were to take the same issue and replace the term "immigrant" with "refugee"? What if it was against the laws of your country to take in Jews from Nazi Germany? What if, by forcing/encouraging deportation of an illegal immigrant, one effectively caused the loss of innocent life either by violence or starvation, both easily avoided by the illegal immigrant remaining and working in your country illegally, even indirectly? But our laws provide for refugees, you may say. Please keep reading. :

I would very willingly illegally immigrate into the US to work to feed my starving family and would not find any sin whatsoever in doing so. Indeed, to abstain from such a thing merely because it was against the law of man at the cost of my family would seem sinful. The law of God supercedes the law of man. Along these same lines, obviously, abortion remains a sin even though the law of man allows it, as does contraception. One could not use this logic resting on the law to justify strapping on a rubber or vacuuming a gravid uterus.

Likewise, I would find no sin in assisting such a person even if it enabled them to remain and work in the country illegally, since to do otherwise would indirectly inflict the very thing they are trying to escape. Kind of like giving someone a ride to the abortion clinic. You've enabled a murder. Would you willingly send someone to their doom because the law said it must be done?

Are all illegal immigrants suffering from a life or death situation? Obviously not. Are they all subject to laws and beaurocracy that are woefully inadequate in doing the right thing every time? Indeed. The Lord never said I must always contribute to that incompetency. When my brother is in need, I will assist, for there is the Lord - Ceaser and his rulebook can go to hell for all I care (take this in context - I'm not speaking of aiding brigands). Lord have mercy on my soul. But I don't believe it is sinful.

I don't think it's quite so cut and dry as classifying the delivery of aid to an illegal immigrant as sinful, even if its outcome serves to assist that illegal in remaining in the country, ie breaking the law. That would be quite a judgement to pass, since every situation is different.

I get the feeling there's an attempt to justify politics here with something that is too complex to fit into that square hole. Using the religious angle won't get this sort of legislation passed, nor make it right, obviously. While I respect the point of view, I still think it would be better to just make plain sense of it rather than paint a very broad brush of sin over the countering side of the issue.

[Azriel]

[quote name='cappie' post='970128' date='May 3 2006, 05:06 PM']
From Roberta Bondi's "Memories of God"

"What I read that day was an exhortation to those early monks not to criticize or judge one another, but rather, to treat one another with the gentleness of our heavenly Father, who especially loves the ones the world despises, and who is always so much more willing than human beings to make allowances for sin, because God alone understands our circumstances, the depths of our temptations, and the extent of our sufferings."

I love this quote. I love the realization that while [b]God certainly isn't endorsing sin, [/b]God is far more understanding of our struggles, pressures, failings and misdirection than most people are. And this is so easy to see isn't it? Someoen is well known, well respected... then a skeleton from a closet comes out and suddenly no one wants to talk to him or her, no one really trusts them anymore, and no one wants them in a visible role in the church. And we'll justify our response with all kinds of theological claims, but the God-honest truth is, we don't have the kind of compassion, understanding, acceptance and desire for intimacy that God does.
[/quote]

Thank you for this Father.

[ironmonk]

This thread has nothing to do with being harsh or not being gentle.

This has to do with the simple fact that we cannot endorse sin without going against the teachings of the Church.

This is not judging anyone... it is a simple statement of fact that something is a sin.

If you lie, it's a sin. If you endorse lying and think nothing is wrong with it, you are going against Catholic teachings.

Now, please replace the word "lie" with any other sin in the book... it fits in that sentance.

If you ______, it's a sin. If you endorse ______ and think nothing is wrong with it, you are going against Catholic teachings.

Saying something is a sin is not judging people... it's telling them the truth to save their souls.

God understands our struggles, but that does not give us a 'get out of jail' card to sin and endorse sin. We can never say "it's ok to do 'this' sin".

Sirach 5:4
Say not: "I have sinned, yet what has befallen me?" for the LORD bides his time.
5 Of forgiveness be not overconfident, adding sin upon sin.
6 Say not: "Great is his mercy; my many sins he will forgive."
7 For mercy and anger alike are with him; upon the wicked alights his wrath.
8 Delay not your conversion to the LORD, put it not off from day to day;
9 For suddenly his wrath flames forth; at the time of vengeance, you will be destroyed.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Jaime]

Well if one doesn't look at intent, then sin is being oversimplified. Unintentional ignorance can lessen the sin or make the action not considered a sin.

Let's take your example of lying.

The Church infallibly teaches that life begins at conception and is sacred. There are no degrees of life beginning at conception, it simply happens. Many people feel that this is true with two caveats, in cases of rape or incest. They have found some means to justify the termination of a pregnancy in these cases, yet they erringly consider themselves prolife. But the Church and the early Church Fathers have condemned all abortions regardless. Therefore making any support of abortion not prolife. Are these people lying? Not necessarily. They could be misinformed or uneducated. Now if someone fully understands Church teaching and knows that life always begins at conception, regardless of how that life was formed, and calls that same person prolife with full knowledge of their beliefs, is that person lying? Is that person actively promoting a lie? Is that person endorsing sin?

Intent is always integral to sin.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote name='jasJis' post='970139' date='May 3 2006, 04:11 PM']
AofJ,
I don't mean to be rude, but it's going to come off that way. Did you read his posts, or just skim them because you feel you have the gist of what he's saying?
I've often made comments to i-monk about HOW he presents things, but WHAT he's saying isn't usually the issue. Whether you like HOW he says things, please read WHAT he's saying. That's a good rule to follow before making a comment on what ANYONE has posted. READ the posts. Your comments would then be a contribution and welcome, even if you disagree.
[/quote]

I was not insinuating that IM had those sentiments of what I was asking. I am merely asking a question to see as a litmus test, if you will, if he considers that a sin. If yes, then we have something to talk about, if not, then his saying that venial sin goes against church teachings is nothing new.

[jasJis]

[quote name='AngelofJesus' post='970528' date='May 3 2006, 10:55 PM']
I was not insinuating that IM had those sentiments of what I was asking. I am merely asking a question to see as a litmus test, if you will, if he considers that a sin. If yes, then we have something to talk about, if not, then his saying that venial sin goes against church teachings is nothing new. [/quote]I don't buy it. He said it wasn't wrong and not a sin already. Why'd ya ask again? Did your litmus paper get wet?