Immigration reform not so necessary... just enforce these laws.

[ironmonk]

[url="http://www.ice.gov/pi/investigations/worksite/newsreleases.htm"]http://www.ice.gov/pi/investigations/works...ewsreleases.htm[/url]

The first three are very informative.

Employers are facing serious fines and prison time for knowingly employing illegal aliens.

Currently it's a federal offense with fines up to $11,000 per illegal in one case, up to $250,000 per illegal in another case, and up to ten years in prison... depending on the charges.

ICE appears to be slow for what is needed, I'm sure all of their arrests are not in these releases, but I'm sure they could use more help.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Sojourner]

So ... perhaps I'm missing your point. How, exactly, do news releases about immigration enforcement efforts mean we don't need immigration reform?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Sojourner' post='968546' date='May 2 2006, 02:41 PM']
So ... perhaps I'm missing your point. How, exactly, do news releases about immigration enforcement efforts mean we don't need immigration reform?
[/quote]

Did you read them?
If you didn't read them, then read them.

If you did read them, then a lesson in critical thinking is needed, so here you go...

Let's first look at the title of the post...

"Immigration reform not so necessary... just enforce these laws"

"not so necessary" = (means) maybe not needed.

"just enforce these laws" = enforce these laws.

The news releases have the laws mentioned and the penalty for breaking those laws listed. If the laws where enforce to a greater degree, illegal immigration would not be such a problem because the reward of hiring an illegal is no longer advantageous. Since the laws have not be enforced to a great extent, employers have become to believe that hiring illegals is advantageous and will continue to do so until it is not.


This is a general thought in regards to previous errors that has been posted in regards to this topic:
We cannot cherry pick Catholicism and be real Catholics.

Hiring an illegal is a sin... Just as downloading a mp3's from Kazaa is a sin... because breaking the law is a sin.

Even though we sin, we cannot say the sin is ok or defend the sin... for if we are the reason why others think a sin is ok, then blood is on our hands. We all sin and need to work toward changing for Christ.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[jasJis]

It's not that Americans won't do those jobs, it's that they won't do them under those conditions and/or that rate of pay. If you make it very difficult for people to employ illegal workers, they will pay what is needed to have people do those jobs. The Landscape company that pays minimum wage to legal workers can possibly pay more for productive employees because he doesn't have to compete with a guy willing to do it for $10 a yard as an undocumented worker. If you think I'm making this up, you're wrong. I have friends (legal and illegal) who do lawncare.

I think that would only be a first step. Serious reform is needed to get these workers Documented as Alien Workers. I'm dead set against easy amnesty due to the stories of the many legal immigrants that have waited years. The entire system needs correction. The first 3 steps are:
-Enforce current labor laws.
-Provide Documentation as Alien Workers to those here with preference to those who have been here longer.
-Re-vamp the entire immigrant to citizen system to be fair to those who have come legally and been waiting the longest.

Reducing the motivation to come here illegally will allow the border forces we have now improve border protection as the volume of illegal attempts will go down.

I think the US did some sort of Amnesty thing in the 80's, and it was some sort of fiasco. I was in my 20's so I didn't really pay attention.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='jasJis' post='968711' date='May 2 2006, 04:51 PM']
It's not that Americans won't do those jobs, it's that they won't do them under those conditions and/or that rate of pay. If you make it very difficult for people to employ illegal workers, they will pay what is needed to have people do those jobs. The Landscape company that pays minimum wage to legal workers can possibly pay more for productive employees because he doesn't have to compete with a guy willing to do it for $10 a yard as an undocumented worker. If you think I'm making this up, you're wrong. I have friends (legal and illegal) who do lawncare.

I think that would only be a first step. Serious reform is needed to get these workers Documented as Alien Workers. I'm dead set against easy amnesty due to the stories of the many legal immigrants that have waited years. The entire system needs correction. The first 3 steps are:
-Enforce current labor laws.
-Provide Documentation as Alien Workers to those here with preference to those who have been here longer.
-Re-vamp the entire immigrant to citizen system to be fair to those who have come legally and been waiting the longest.

Reducing the motivation to come here illegally will allow the border forces we have now improve border protection as the volume of illegal attempts will go down.

I think the US did some sort of Amnesty thing in the 80's, and it was some sort of fiasco. I was in my 20's so I didn't really pay attention.
[/quote]

Good points.

I would also like to see those who really care about Mexicans to put their money where their mouth is and send money to Mexico for better schools - maybe via the Catholic Church or to Catholic Church schools in Mexico.... I would also like to see people push for companies that have factories in China to push for them to pull out and move to Mexico. I am unaware of the way Mexico treats corporations and industrial factories, but I'm sure they could come up with attractive tax breaks for them to move there.

I would also like to see Mexicans pushing for reform in their own country. I realize that it is hard for a lot of them to do this because of the majority's low education levels, but I'm sure that there are some there that could do it.

Mexico's issues are only growing... they are making it legal to have small amounts of marijuana and cocaine... which means we'll see even more coming into our country.... but that is not the main issue, the main issue is that their government is backward thinking. One of the primary reasons is because cops are getting killed by drug dealers, that's not a reason to make small amounts legal. Neither is not wanting to go after the consumers... lessen the penalty for consumers who reveal their dealers would be the route to take. I would go as far to say that in Mexico it might be necessary to make dealing a captial crime to protect society.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Sojourner]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='968630' date='May 2 2006, 04:00 PM']
Did you read them?
If you didn't read them, then read them.

If you did read them, then a lesson in critical thinking is needed, so here you go...

Let's first look at the title of the post...

"Immigration reform not so necessary... just enforce these laws"

"not so necessary" = (means) maybe not needed.

"just enforce these laws" = enforce these laws.

The news releases have the laws mentioned and the penalty for breaking those laws listed. If the laws where enforce to a greater degree, illegal immigration would not be such a problem because the reward of hiring an illegal is no longer advantageous. Since the laws have not be enforced to a great extent, employers have become to believe that hiring illegals is advantageous and will continue to do so until it is not.
This is a general thought in regards to previous errors that has been posted in regards to this topic:
We cannot cherry pick Catholicism and be real Catholics.

Hiring an illegal is a sin... Just as downloading a mp3's from Kazaa is a sin... because breaking the law is a sin.

Even though we sin, we cannot say the sin is ok or defend the sin... for if we are the reason why others think a sin is ok, then blood is on our hands. We all sin and need to work toward changing for Christ.

God Bless,
ironmonk
[/quote]
Why thank you, ironmonk. I always find the exchange of ideas with you to be so enlightening. And, I appreciate the tutorial in critical thinking. I am in your debt.

OK. So part of the reason behind the push for immigration reform is that the current immigration laws don't come close to addressing the real life immigration needs. With 11 million undocumented immigrants living and working in the U.S., my opinion, and that of many, many immigration experts I have spoken with, is that enforcement alone is not going to provide the entire solution.

You, however, seem convinced that increased enforcement is the answer. I can easily back up my position, and am more than happy to do so if you would like. I have trouble, however, seeing how you can support your position. Please provide evidence that supports your conclusion that increased enforcement -- including the cost of investigation, prosecution, jailing of offenders, and deportation -- is an economically viable solution to address the fact that we have at least 11 million people living and working in the U.S. without proper documentation.

Also, please address the question of how to morally and ethically handle situations in which immigrants have been in the U.S. for long periods of time and have become, for all intents and purposes, Americans. Current law does not provide a means for people such as these to become legal citizens. Since you advocate no reform of immigration laws, please address how, under the current law, the thousands (or perhaps millions) of people in situations such as this should be handled.

Thanks in advance for your charitable, thoughtful response.

[toledo_jesus]

nm

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='968630' date='May 2 2006, 03:00 PM']
Did you read them?[b]
If you didn't read them, then read them.

If you did read them, then a lesson in critical thinking is needed, so here you go...

Let's first look at the title of the post...[/b]"Immigration reform not so necessary... just enforce these laws"

"not so necessary" = (means) maybe not needed.

"just enforce these laws" = enforce these laws.

The news releases have the laws mentioned and the penalty for breaking those laws listed. If the laws where enforce to a greater degree, illegal immigration would not be such a problem because the reward of hiring an illegal is no longer advantageous. Since the laws have not be enforced to a great extent, employers have become to believe that hiring illegals is advantageous and will continue to do so until it is not.
This is a general thought in regards to previous errors that has been posted in regards to this topic:
We cannot cherry pick Catholicism and be real Catholics.

Hiring an illegal is a sin... Just as downloading a mp3's from Kazaa is a sin... because breaking the law is a sin.

Even though we sin, we cannot say the sin is ok or defend the sin... for if we are the reason why others think a sin is ok, then blood is on our hands. We all sin and need to work toward changing for Christ.

God Bless,
ironmonk
[/quote]

Please don't talk down to people. It's not necessary to be condicending and rude in order to make a point.