Maybe You Can Help Me On This

[mulls]

and for the record, I still remember the numerous times I have been told NOT to evangelize and spread the Gospel, because I am not Catholic, and I do not hold the Truth, and I would be leading people into nothing but lies and deception.

[hyperdulia again]

Mulls NO! and here's why, we don't know who is ignorant through know fault of their own and who isn't. That is why we should preach the GOSPEL OF cHRIST. To everyone. Christ in the Tabernacle, Christ on the Altar, Christ in the Sacraments, Christ in His Holy Word, Christ in my belly, Christ in my mind, Christ in my heart, CHRIST IN MY BAPTISED SOUL.

[hyperdulia again]

and for the record, I still remember the numerous times I have been told NOT to evangelize and spread the Gospel, because I am not Catholic, and I do not hold the Truth, and I would be leading people into nothing but lies and deception.

Mulls we believe that just as there is one Lord, that one Lord has given His Truth to one Church. I am sorry, but I could not in good conscience advise you a while ago to go forth and preach something less than the fullness of truth. But I call you Brother and believe you to be so.

[Circle_Master]

Here's a protestant scholar you might like hyper

Clark H. Pinnock, "Acts 4:12-No Other Name under Heaven," Through No Fault of Their Own? (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1991)

Can't say I agree with Pinnock however. He's also written a book called "How Wide is God's Mercy" which I read. It's an interesting read, I believe with lots of flaws though

[hyperdulia again]

Here's a protestant scholar you might like hyper

Clark H. Pinnock, "Acts 4:12-No Other Name under Heaven," Through No Fault of Their Own? (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1991)

Can't say I agree with Pinnock however. He's also written a book called "How Wide is God's Mercy" which I read. It's an interesting read, I believe with lots of flaws though

I look for him at Amazon.

[Circle_Master]

I don't have any patience. Someone answer my question on the Q&A Board!

[mulls]

bump

[ironmonk]

I don't have any patience. Someone answer my question on the Q&A Board!

When we (cappie) say "Tradition" we are speaking of Sacred Tradition, and not 'tradition of men'.

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

2 Thess 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

2 Tim 2:2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

These faithful people...who could they be??? Which Church has been around since the Time of Christ & His Apostles? .... The Catholic Church, fulfilling the commands of Jesus.

2 Timoty 3:14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,

15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

This shows that someone taught it....The scripture spoken of here is the Septuagint... The New Testament was not around until 400 AD.

1 Corin 11:2

I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

These traditions spoken of are what the Catholic Church hands on....

1 Corin 15:3

For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures;

1 Corin 15:11

Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,

17 the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus promised that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit, in Truth. The Church cannot be wrong about faith and morals, because Jesus said so.

We also have over 50,000 pages of Early Christian Writings aka The Early Church Fathers.

http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/ -- the same writings can be purchased at www.Logos.com for $249... go there and look up "Early Church Fathers" read what it says about the Protestant Version. I have a baptist friend, and he says that his baptist preacher who is his father in law loves the ECF writings. You can read them for free at New Advent.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Circle_Master]

I think I'm beginning to understand how you Catholics work. (honestly)

I have to agree that we should study the Church Fathers to see what they taught on Scripture. I'm not sure where you get the idea that tradition is promised to stay true and never waver. If someone could post a few sources for me to read?

[cmotherofpirl]

I think I'm beginning to understand how you Catholics work. (honestly)

I have to agree that we should study the Church Fathers to see what they taught on Scripture. I'm not sure where you get the idea that tradition is promised to stay true and never waver. If someone could post a few sources for me to read?

We consider Tradition Sacred because it is the Word of God. So what the Apostles taught was handed on intact to the Church Fathers who handed them done to us. The teachings can be studied and better explanations can develop as to how things work in all the details, but they in essence do not change. Some of these teachings ended up in the Bible and the rest in Sacred Tradition of the Church. So abortion can never be acceptable, divorce can never be acceptable etc.

This is not to say members of the Church never sin, but to say the Church will never change the teachings in these areas.

Does this help?

[Circle_Master]

perhaps. Do you have a list of sacred tradition then? or do you just derive it from the church fathers writings?

[cmotherofpirl]

Its a bit hard to condense 2000 years of teaching in a paragraph. :D

For example the Church has always believed the bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ at Mass. THat water Baptism is necessary for salvation. THat Mary was and Is a Virgin. THat Jesus was the Son of God.

A list of beliefs are found in the didache, or the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed.

Remember the Church only gets down to details when somebody attacking us. Then beliefs are spelled out in great detail to avoid confusion and to make sure everybody is on the same page. For 2000 years, we have had people saying "what if" so of course definitions are not as simple as they used to be. THey have to cover all contingencies because lawyer-type brains are always coming up with them. THen people complain everything is too detailed.

I really do suggest you get a copy of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott or the Catechism and study one section at a time.

[Donna]

Yes, Circle, get Ott or the Denzinger, or both.

To back up, re: hell and who goes there and etc;

Church teaching:

If one dies in unrepentant mortal sin, one goes to hell.

There may be non-Catholics of all stripes who keep the Commandments - who are not willfully ignorant of the true Church - and who do not die in mortal sin.

The Church also teaches that should one sin mortally (ie, breaking a Commandment or more than one), even without sacramental absolution (confession), one can make what is called a perfect act of contrition: that is, a sorrow of the sin stemming from love of God and great remorse in having offened Him, rather than repenting thru fear of hellfire. This, of course, applies also to Catholics. AND it presupposes for both Catholic and non-Catholic, that one would amend their life and approach the confessional.

The Cure of Ars once told a distraught widow that her husband repented between "the bridge and the water".

But it is very, very difficult to obtain the grace to keep the Commandments, etc; without the sacraments.

Edited December 30, 2003 by Donna

[Aloysius]

this is in jasJis's sig..

CCC 818: "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

that refers to protestants now. of course that wouldn't have been the teaching when the protestants were openly attacking the Church and breaking away from it... because that actually is their sin. we don't know the fate of their soul, for many i believe were repentent on their death beds. nevertheless, it is their sin of separation, and not the sin of protestants now. but we must still have ecumenical dialogue to fulfill Christ's prayer that we all be one. Protestants are saved by the truths that they retained from the Catholic Church, i.e. Jesus Christ is the Son of God died on the cross for our sins, etc. etc.

i'm pretty sure all ppl who are truly Christian believe the first proclamation of the first pope:

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" ~Pope St. Peter

and so, you are all united, albeit imperfectly united, to the Catholic Church. yet we still must fulfill Christ's prayer and make perfect unity to please God and have more assurance that one will not be led astray into subjective morality or something of the like which could send them to hell. the Jewish people still have a covenant with God, and while their ancestors rejected Christ, they should not be charged with that sin. If they try to do God's will as they understand it from the truths which they still hold which we received from them (that there is one God, the Great I AM, etc) then they too may acheive salvation, yet it is through Christ and His Church. that means that after they die, the Graces of God may be shed upon them by the Merits of His Holy Church that they would accept Jesus as Messiah, be purified, and enter the Heavenly Gates. With the Muslims, they have truths which Mohammed stole from the Catholic Church, truths of One God, yet that is filled with heresy. yet, if they do not have the chance to accept Jesus Christ as God, these truths stolen from the Church also give them an imperfect union with the Church, and after they die that imperfect union can lead them to perfect union if it be God's will to shed the Graces upon them by the Merits of His Holy Church so that they accept the Messiah Jesus as Lord and saviour, be purified, and enter the heavenly gates.

for other religions, they definitely have maybe only slight glimmers of truth, and their imperfect link to the Church is very weak. if they are to die, it is more likely that they would go to hell than say, a Jew, or a Muslim, but nevertheless they still have a chance. If they follow God's will through the dictates of their own consceince to please God, their imperfect union with the Church is strengthened by a unity of morality and they too, upon their death, may be given the graces to accept that their is only one God in three Divine Persons and that Jesus Christ died for sin, and they may be purified and enter the heavenly gates.

of course, all of those are just possibilities. They must live a moral life, and outside the teaching authority of the Church it is not as easy for them to live a moral life as they don't have a definite definition of what is moral and what is not.

therefore, preaching the gospel is VITAL and one of our most sacred responsibilties, because, simply because we know that God wills that all men be saved; and will even allow these extraordinary means if it means more souls that died without mortal sin and are thus potentially open to the graces will receive those graces and be with Him in eternity; that does not mean that anyone outside of the Church has i high possibility of salvation. their possibility increases drastically if they accept CHrist Church and all its truths, therefore we must evangelize to keep them out of hell, because we don't know who God is going to give these extraordinary graces to upon death.

as for the justice/mercy thing, i believe there is no conflict there. i'll havta get my Scott Hahn book, but i recall him showing with scripture that in the old testament the words are used very much linked together. it is definitely Biblical that His justice is merciful and His Mercy is just. Justice demands people be punished for thir sins, Mercy demands that people be allowed to have the free will to either accept or reject God. In that way, both Justice and Mercy send some people to hell.

sorry for the long post, just wanted to cover all the bases :cool: