Maybe You Can Help Me On This

[cmotherofpirl]

so the only people in hell are the one's who understand perfectly that they are wrong, and still don't act.

Considering I don't know anyone who goes against what is best for himself, hell is going to be a very empty place! I can see why evangelism is never a priority for Catholic churches as well. You can say that statement is not true, but I know many Catholic churches in my area and 0, yes 0, I have ever seen lead community events to reach out. So in practice, pfft.

I wonder what you do with Matthew 7:13-14

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Where are these many going to destruction coming from!

CS Lewis put it well. in the end we can say to God "thy will was done, or MY will was done."

Sin is a choice, and unrepented sin leads to hell. People choose things against their best interest everyday. Smoking , drinking, driving while drunk, having sex with your best friends wife, stealing from the company etc.

I think hell is well-populated. But we as CAtholics do not judge and say so and so is in hell. God judges not us.

[Circle_Master]

God judges not us.

oh really. it is never listed 'if you don't judge, you won't be!' It says if you do judge, be prepared to be judged back. That is bad logic. Because A = b doesn't mean if A isn't true, then B isn't true.

Genesis 15:14 And also I will judge that nation whom they shall serve. And afterward they shall come out with great substance.

Genesis 16:5 And Sarai said to Abram, My wrong be upon you. I have given my slave woman into your bosom, and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes. Jehovah judge between me and you.

Genesis 18:25 Far be it from You to act in this manner, to kill the righteous with the wicked. And far be it from You, that the righteous should be as the wicked. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Genesis 31:53 The God of Abraham, and the God of Nahor, the God of their father, judge between us. And Jacob swore by the Fear of his father Isaac.

Exodus 2:14 And he said, Who made you as a man, a ruler and a judge over us? Do you intend to kill me as you killed the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known.

Exodus 5:21 And they said to them, Jehovah look upon you and judge, because you have made our smell to stink in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hands to kill us.

Leviticus 27:14 And when a man shall sanctify his house to be holy to Jehovah, then the priest shall judge it, whether it is good or bad. As the priest shall judge it, so shall it stand.

Numbers 35:24 then the congregation shall judge between the one who kills and the revenger of blood according to these judgments.

Deuteronomy 1:16 And I commanded your judges at that time saying, Hear the causes between your brothers, and judge righteously between a man and his brother, and the stranger with him.

Deuteronomy 16:18 You shall appoint judges and officers for yourself in all your gates which Jehovah your God gives you, tribe by tribe. And they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.

Deuteronomy 17:9 And you shall come to the priests of the Levites, and to the judge that shall be in those days, and ask. And they shall declare to you the sentence of judgment.

Deuteronomy 17:12 And the man that acts proudly and will not listen to the priest who stands to minister there before Jehovah your God, or to the judge, even that man shall die. And you shall put away the evil from Israel.

Deuteronomy 25:2 then it shall be, if the wrongdoer is worthy to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to fall down. And one shall strike him in his presence, enough for his wrong, by a certain number.

Judges 2:18 And when Jehovah raised judges up for them, then Jehovah was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge. For Jehovah took pity because of their groanings before their oppressors and their crushers.

Judges 2:19 And it happened when the judge was dead, they returned and made themselves more rotten than their fathers in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down to them. They did not cease from their own doings nor from their stubborn way.

Judges 11:27 So I have not sinned against you, but you do me wrong to war against me. Jehovah, the Judge, will judge this day between the sons of Israel and the sons of Ammon.

Judges 18:7 And the five men departed and came to Laish, and saw the people in it, how they lived carelessly, as the Sidonians do, quiet and secure. And there was no judge in the land who might put them to shame in a thing. And they were far from the Sidonians, and had no business with any man.

1 Samuel 2:10 The foes of Jehovah shall be broken to pieces. He thunders in the heavens upon them. Jehovah shall judge the ends of the earth. And He shall give strength to His king, and exalts the horn of His anointed.

1 Samuel 2:25 If one man sins against another, the judge shall judge him. But if a man sins against Jehovah, who shall plead for him? But they did not listen to the voice of their father, because Jehovah desired to kill them.

1 Samuel 3:13 For I have told him that I will judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knows, because his sons made themselves vile and he did not restrain them.

1 Samuel 8:5 And they said to him, Behold, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

1 Samuel 8:6 But the thing was evil in the eyes of Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed to Jehovah.

1 Samuel 8:20 And we shall be, also we, like all the nations, so that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.

1 Samuel 24:12 May Jehovah judge between me and you, and may Jehovah avenge me of you. But my hand shall not be on you.

1 Samuel 24:15 May Jehovah therefore be judge, and judge between you and me, and see, and plead my cause, and deliver me out of your hand.

2 Samuel 15:4 And Absalom said, Oh that I might be made judge in the land, so that every man who has any suit or cause might come to me, and I would do him justice!

1 Kings 3:9 And give to Your servant an understanding heart, to judge Your people, to discern between good and bad. For who is able to judge this, Your great people?

1 Kings 3:11 And God said to him, Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked for yourself long life, and have not asked riches for yourself, nor have asked the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to judge justly,

1 Kings 8:32 then hear in Heaven, and do, and judge Your servants, to declare the wicked to be wicked, to bring his way on his head, and to declare the righteous to be righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

1 Chronicles 16:33 Then shall the trees of the forest sing out at the presence of Jehovah, because He comes to judge the earth.

2 Chronicles 1:10 Give me now wisdom and knowledge that I may go out and come in before this people. For who can judge this Your great people?

2 Chronicles 1:11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in your heart, and you have not asked riches, wealth, nor honor, nor the life of your enemies, nor yet have asked for long life but have asked wisdom and knowledge for yourself that you may judge My people, over whom I have made you king;

2 Chronicles 6:23 then hear from Heaven, and do, and judge Your servants by repaying the wicked, by bringing his way back on his own head, and by justifying the righteous, by giving to him according to his righteousness.

2 Chronicles 19:6 And he said to the judges, Take heed what you do. For you do not judge for man, but for Jehovah, who is with you in the judgment.

2 Chronicles 20:12 O our God, will You not judge them? For we have no might against this great company which comes against us. Nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are on You.

Ezra 7:25 And now, Ezra, after the wisdom of your God that is in your hand, set officers and judges who may judge all the people who are Beyond the River, all who know the Laws of your God; and teach them who do not know.

Job 21:22 Shall any teach God knowledge, since He shall judge the exalted?

Job 22:13 And you say, What does God know? Can He judge through the dark cloud?

Job 23:7 There the righteous might reason with Him; and I would be delivered forever from my Judge.

Psalms 7:8 Jehovah shall judge the people; judge me, O Jehovah, according to my righteousness, and according to my integrity on me.

Psalms 9:8 And He shall judge the world in righteousness; He shall judge the peoples in uprightness.

Psalms 10:13 Why do the wicked condemn God? He has said in his heart, You will not judge.

Psalms 10:18 to judge the fatherless and the oppressed, so that the man of the earth may no more terrify.

Psalms 26:1 A Psalm of David. Judge me, O Jehovah; for I have walked in my truthfulness. I have trusted also in Jehovah; I shall not slide.

Psalms 35:24 Judge me, O Jehovah my God, according to Your righteousness; and do not let them rejoice over me.

Psalms 43:1 Judge me, O God, and plead my cause against an ungodly nation. Oh deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man.

Psalms 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, so that He may judge His people.

Psalms 50:6 And the heavens shall declare His righteousness; for God Himself is judge. Selah.

Psalms 51:4 Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done evil in Your sight; that You might be justified when You speak, and be clear when You judge.

Psalms 54:1 To the Chief Musician. On stringed instruments. A contemplation. A Psalm of David, when the Ziphites came and said to Saul, Does not David hide himself among us? Save me, O God, by Your name, and judge me by Your strength.

Psalms 58:1 To the Chief Musician. Do not destroy. A secret treasure of David. Will you indeed speak righteousness in silence? Do you judge uprightly, O sons of men?

Psalms 67:4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy; for You shall judge the peoples righteously and govern the nations on earth. Selah.

Psalms 68:5 In His holy dwelling God is the father of the fatherless, and the judge of the widows.

Psalms 72:2 He will judge Your people in righteousness, and Your poor with judgment.

Psalms 72:4 He shall judge the poor of the people; He shall save the children of the needy, and shall crush in pieces the cruel one.

Psalms 75:2 When I take the appointed time, I will judge uprightly.

Psalms 75:7 But God is the judge; He puts down one and sets up another.

Psalms 82:2 How long will you judge unjustly and lift up the faces of the wicked? Selah.

Psalms 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for You shall inherit in all nations.

Psalms 94:2 Lift up Yourself, Judge of the earth; give a just repayment to the proud.

Psalms 96:10 Say among the nations, Jehovah reigns; and the world shall be established; it shall not be moved; He shall judge the peoples in uprightness.

Psalms 96:13 before Jehovah; for He comes, for He comes to judge the earth; He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth.

Psalms 98:9 before Jehovah; for He comes to judge the earth; with righteousness He shall judge the world, and the peoples in uprightness.

Psalms 110:6 He shall judge among the nations, He shall fill them with dead bodies; He shall shatter heads over much of the earth.

Psalms 135:14 For Jehovah will judge His people, and He will have pity on His servants.

Proverbs 31:9 Open your mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Ecclesiastes 3:17 I said in my heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Isaiah 1:17 learn to do good; seek judgment, reprove the oppressor. Judge the orphan, plead for the widow.

Isaiah 1:23 your rulers are rebellious, and companions of thieves; everyone loves a bribe, and is pursuing rewards; they do not judge the orphan, nor does the cause of the widow come to them.

Isaiah 2:4 And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isaiah 3:2 the mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient,

Isaiah 3:13 Jehovah stands up to plead His case, and stands up to judge the people.

Isaiah 5:3 And now, O people of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, please judge between Me and My vineyard.

Isaiah 11:3 And He is made to breathe in the fear of Jehovah. And He shall not judge according to the sight of His eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears.

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and shall decide with uprightness for the meek of the earth. And He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

Isaiah 33:22 For Jehovah is our judge, Jehovah is our lawgiver, Jehovah is our king; He will save us.

Isaiah 51:5 My righteousness is near; My salvation has gone out, and My arms shall judge peoples; the coastlands shall wait on Me, and on My arm they shall trust.

Jeremiah 5:9 Shall I not judge for these things? says Jehovah. And shall not My soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

Jeremiah 5:28 They have become fat, they shine. Yes, they go past the deeds of the wicked; they do not judge the cause, the cause of the fatherless, that they may get rich; and they do not judge the right of the needy.

Jeremiah 50:31 Behold, I am against you, O proud ones, says the Lord Jehovah of Hosts; for your day has come, the time that I will judge you.

Lamentations 3:59 O Jehovah, You have seen my wrong; judge my cause.

Ezekiel 7:3 Now the end is on you, and I will send My anger on you and will judge you according to your ways, and will lay on you all your abominations.

Ezekiel 7:8 And I will soon pour out My fury on you, and fulfill My anger on you. And I will judge you according to your ways, and will repay you for all your abominations.

Ezekiel 7:27 The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with despair, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled. I will do to them according to their way, and according to their judgments I will judge them; and they shall know that I am Jehovah.

Ezekiel 11:10 You shall fall by the sword. I will judge you in the border of Israel, and you shall know that I am Jehovah.

Ezekiel 11:11 This city shall not be your pot, nor shall you be the flesh in her midst. But I will judge you in the border of Israel,

Ezekiel 16:38 And I will judge you with judgments of adulteresses, and with shedders of blood. And I will give you blood and fury and jealousy.

Ezekiel 17:20 And I will spread My net on him, and he shall be taken in My snare, and I will bring him to Babylon, and I will judge him there with his sin which he has sinned against Me.

Ezekiel 18:30 So I will judge you, O house of Israel, each one of you according to his ways, says the Lord Jehovah. Turn and be made to turn from all your sins; and iniquity shall not be your stumbling-block.

Ezekiel 20:4 Will you judge them, son of man, will you judge them? Cause them to know the abominations of their fathers.

Ezekiel 21:30 Return it to its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you.

Ezekiel 22:2 And you, son of man, will you judge, will you judge the bloody city? And you shall make her know all her abominations.

Ezekiel 23:24 And they shall come against you with weapons, chariots, and wheels, and with an assembly of peoples; buckler and shield and helmet shall set against you all around. And I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge you by their judgments.

Ezekiel 23:36 And Jehovah said to me: Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah, and declare to them their abominations,

Ezekiel 23:45 And as righteous men, they shall judge them with the judgment of adulteresses, and the judgment of women who shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

Ezekiel 24:14 I Jehovah have spoken. It shall come, and I will do it. I will not let go, nor will I spare, nor will I repent. According to your ways, and according to your doings, they shall judge you, says the Lord Jehovah.

Ezekiel 33:20 Yet you say, The way of the Lord is not fair. O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways.

Ezekiel 34:17 And you, My flock, says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I judge between lamb and lamb, between rams and he-goats.

Ezekiel 34:20 So the Lord Jehovah says this to them: Behold I Myself will even judge between the fat lamb and the lean lamb.

Ezekiel 34:22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no more be a prey. And I will judge between lamb and lamb.

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will judge him with a plague and with blood. And I will rain on him, and on his bands, and on the many peoples with him, an overflowing shower, and great hailstones, fire and brimstone.

Ezekiel 44:24 And in a dispute they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments. And they shall keep My Laws and My statutes in all My assemblies, and they shall keep My sabbaths holy.

Joel 3:12 Let the nations be awakened and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the nations all around.

Amos 2:3 And I will cut off the judge from its midst, and will kill all its rulers with him, says Jehovah.

Obadiah 1:21 And deliverers shall go up into the mountain of Zion to judge the mountain of Esau; and the kingdom shall be to Jehovah.

Micah 3:11 Her heads judge for a bribe, and her priests teach for pay, and her prophets divine for silver, yet they will lean on Jehovah and say, Is not Jehovah among us? No evil can come on us!

Micah 4:3 And He shall judge between many peoples, and will decide for strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, And they shall not still learn war.

Micah 5:1 Now gather yourself in troops, daughter of a troop; one sets a siege against us; they shall strike the Judge of Israel with a rod on the cheek.

Micah 7:3 Both hands are on evil, to do it well. The ruler asks for a bribe, and the judge also; and the great man speaks the evil desire of his soul. So they weave it together.

Zechariah 3:7 So says Jehovah of Hosts: If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My charge, then you shall also judge My house, and shall also keep My courts, and I will give you places to walk among these who stand by.

Zechariah 7:9 So speaks Jehovah of Hosts, saying, Judge true judgment, and practice kindness and pity, each man to his brother.

Zechariah 8:16 These are the things that you shall do. Each man speak the truth to his neighbor. Judge with truth and justice for peace in your gates.

Matthew 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are in the way with him; that the opponent not deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that you may not be judged.

Matthew 7:2 For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

Luke 12:14 And He said to him, Man, who made Me a judge or a divider over you?

Luke 12:57 And why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?

Luke 12:58 For as you go with your adversary to the judge, give pains in the way to be set free from him, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer cast you into the prison.

Luke 18:2 saying, A certain judge was in a certain city, not fearing God, nor respecting man.

Luke 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge says.

Luke 19:22 And he said to him, I will judge you out of your own mouth, wicked servant! You knew that I was a harsh man, taking up what I had not laid down and reaping what I did not sow.

John 5:30 I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.

John 7:24 Do not judge according to sight, but judge righteous judgment.

John 7:51 Does our law judge the Man before it hears Him and knows what He does?

John 8:15 You judge after the flesh, I judge no one.

John 8:16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me.

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you, but He who sent Me is true, and I speak to the world those things what I heard of Him.

John 12:47 And if any one hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I do not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 12:48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My Words has one who judges him; the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 18:31 Then Pilate said to them, You take him and judge him according to your Law. Then the Jews said to him, It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death

Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, Whether it is right before God to listen to you more than to God, you judge.

Acts 7:7 And God said, "I will judge the nation to whom they shall be in bondage," and "after these things they will come out and will serve Me in this place."

Acts 7:27 But he who wronged his neighbor thrust him away, saying, Who made you a ruler and a judge over us?

Acts 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made you a ruler and a judge? God has sent this one to be a ruler and a redeemer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the Bush.

Acts 10:42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 13:46 But speaking boldly, Paul and Barnabas said, It was necessary for the Word of God to be spoken to you first. But since indeed you put it far from you and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the nations.

Acts 17:8 And hearing these things, they troubled the crowd and the city judge.

Acts 17:31 because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead.

Acts 18:15 But if it is a question of a word and names, and of your law, you look to it. For I do not wish to be a judge of such things.

Acts 24:10 But the governor motioning to him to speak, Paul answered; Understanding you as being a judge of this nation many years, I cheerfully defend myself as to the things concerning myself.

Romans 2:1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, everyone who judges; for in that in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, for you who judge do the same things.

Romans 2:16 in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 2:27 And the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfills the Law, shall it not judge you, who through letter and circumcision become transgressors of the Law?

Romans 3:6 Let it not be! For then how shall God judge the world?

Romans 14:3 Do not let him who eats despise him who does not eat; and do not let him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has received him.

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or also why do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:13 Then let us not judge one another any more, but rather judge this, not to put a stumbling-block or an offense toward his brother.

1 Corinthians 4:3 But to me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by a man's day; but I do not judge my own self,

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall each one have praise of God.

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what is it to me to also judge those who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels, not to mention the things of this life?

1 Corinthians 6:4 If, then, you truly have judgments of the things of this life, set those who are least esteemed in the church to judge.

1 Corinthians 6:5 For I speak to your shame. Is it so that there is not a wise one among you, not even one in your midst who shall be able to judge between his brother?

1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say.

1 Corinthians 11:13 Judge among yourselves: is it right that a woman pray to God unveiled?

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

1 Corinthians 14:29 And if there are two or three prophets, let them speak, and let the others judge.

2 Corinthians 11:5 For I judge myself to have come behind the highest apostles in nothing.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a feast, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths.

2 Timothy 4:1 Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom,

2 Timothy 4:8 Now there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that Day; and not to me only, but also to all those who love His appearing.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know Him who has said, "Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, says the Lord." And again, "The Lord shall judge His people."

Hebrews 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled, but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

James 4:11 Do not speak against one another, brothers. He who speaks against his brother, and who judges his brother, speaks against the Law and judges the Law. But if you judge the Law, you are not a doer of the Law, but a judge.

James 5:9 Do not grudge against one another, brothers, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge stands before the door.

1 Peter 4:5 But they shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

Sorry I didn't have time to format all this and take out the ones which didn't apply, but you get the point ;)

Edited December 27, 2003 by Circle_Master

[jasJis]

Circle,

It's as simple as the fact that no human can fully know the mind of God or comprehend His perfect Mercy and Justice. We do know that God tells us quite clearly 'Reject Him, we reject Salvation'. We do not know exactly how God Himself balances Perfect Justice with Perfect Mercy. Jesus repeatedly tells us not to take anything for granted, but to trust our Faith in God for the comfort of Hope.

[cmotherofpirl]

You really don't think I'm gonna read all that.

What is your point?

[foundsheep]

You actually made our case. Did you post all of those thinking we wouldt read them, most of the judging is done by god in those versus and others you have snipped from full chapters that mean something else. And the no-brainer was that you even used the Matthew verse as said by Jesus "judge not lest ye be judge".

Thanks.

Peace be wit you

Foundsheep

[Circle_Master]

Circle,

It's as simple as the fact that no human can fully know the mind of God or comprehend His perfect Mercy and Justice. We do know that God tells us quite clearly 'Reject Him, we reject Salvation'. We do not know exactly how God Himself balances Perfect Justice with Perfect Mercy. Jesus repeatedly tells us not to take anything for granted, but to trust our Faith in God for the comfort of Hope.

where do you derive a God of perfect mercy from? If God had perfect mercy then wouldn't that mean no one goes to hell? And that no one ever suffers from any result of sin?

in response to others, I apologized at the bottom because I didn't have time to format all of it. But if you go to the 'do not just lest ye yourself be judged' one, I suggest you read the entire chapter and what it says afterward. I'm not sure what's being argued here anyway, I really don't think I should go around telling everyone if I think they are going to hell or not. I can tell them what God requires for it, but it is in their heart if they have met that or not. That is not judging, it is regurgitating.

[Circle_Master]

anathema: A Greek word with the root meaning of cursed or separated and the adapted meaning of excommunicated. Used in Church documents, especially the canons of ecumenical councils, to condemn heresy and practices opposed to proper discipline.

Please read this:

http://www.moraltruth.com/rJones-01.asp

I explain what the Church teaches on Salvation by correcting Rick Jones.

There are links to references.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

maybe you can help me out Iron Monk, but when was that catechism written. In specific the 'Catholic by Desire' part you mentioned.

[cmotherofpirl]

where do you derive a God of perfect mercy from? If God had perfect mercy then wouldn't that mean no one goes to hell? And that no one ever suffers from any result of sin?

in response to others, I apologized at the bottom because I didn't have time to format all of it. But if you go to the 'do not just lest ye yourself be judged' one, I suggest you read the entire chapter and what it says afterward. I'm not sure what's being argued here anyway, I really don't think I should go around telling everyone if I think they are going to hell or not. I can tell them what God requires for it, but it is in their heart if they have met that or not. That is not judging, it is regurgitating.

Since God is perfect, His mercy would have to be perfect. But since He is a God of Justice, that would be perfect as well. We simply don't know how the two work together, because our ways are not His ways. Some people lean toward mercy and some people lean toward justice because we are not capable of reconciling the two, thats God's job.

"I really don't think I should go around telling everyone if I think they are going to hell or not. I can tell them what God requires for it, but it is in their heart if they have met that or not."(Circlemaster)

We would agree with you. We are not capable of deciding who personally is in hell or not. God does that. However we would go a bit further to point out that there are objective standards of sin, and it is not based on feeling. Somethings will always be objectively wrong.

[Circle_Master]

Since God is perfect, His mercy would have to be perfect.

why

God is perfect because of His attributes. He is said to be merciful, but never omni-merciful.

[cmotherofpirl]

why

God is perfect because of His attributes. He is said to be merciful, but never omni-merciful.

God is all mercy all truth all justice because he is God.

God simply IS.

[Circle_Master]

you still haven't told me why. you are just saying you think if God is perfect, he must have perfect mercy. and if anything is all mercy, it cannot be all justice, for mercy involves sparing what justly must be.

[phatcatholic]

you still haven't told me why. you are just saying you think if God is perfect, he must have perfect mercy. and if anything is all mercy, it cannot be all justice, for mercy involves sparing what justly must be.

are you then implying that God can somehow be w/o mercy or unjust? i can't see these as being qualities of our God. i would instead say that in his perfect love, his mercy is always just, and his justice is always merciful.

where is my proof to back this up? well, i honestly don't have any at the moment. if you insisted upon it, i suppose i could find it. i believe my understanding of God is in accordance w/ Catholic theology. but, i am always open to correction.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

so the only people in hell are the one's who understand perfectly that they are wrong, and still don't act.

Considering I don't know anyone who goes against what is best for himself, hell is going to be a very empty place! I can see why evangelism is never a priority for Catholic churches as well. You can say that statement is not true, but I know many Catholic churches in my area and 0, yes 0, I have ever seen lead community events to reach out. So in practice, pfft.

I wonder what you do with Matthew 7:13-14

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Where are these many going to destruction coming from!

you don't know anyone who goes against what is best for himself?!?! well brother, allow me to be the first. i go against what is best for myself all the time! i think most people do. we may know what is right and what is best for us, but that certainly does not mean that we always follow it. many of the sins i commit i know full well that they are sinful and bad for me, yet i do them anyway. i think this is all a part of our fallen nature: we are tempted and compelled to do things that are not best.

in particular, i am thinking of a sin that many men struggle with (and women too): masturbation. a large portion of the guilt that men feel after they commit this sin comes from the fact that they knew that it was wrong for them, yet they did it anyway. essentially, this is what mortal sin is. and those who die w/ this sin on their soul will go to hell. considering our sinful nature, and the suddenness w/ which physical death often falls upon us, i would assume that there are in fact many in hell.

just as a side note, i think that this is the first time that i have ever head a non-catholic criticize catholicism b/c we do not condemn enough people to hell! i can now say that, when it comes to apologetics, i have heard it all!

pax christi,

phatcatholic

[Circle_Master]

you don't know anyone who goes against what is best for himself?!?! well brother, allow me to be the first. i go against what is best for myself all the time! i think most people do. we may know what is right and what is best for us, but that certainly does not mean that we always follow it. many of the sins i commit i know full well that they are sinful and bad for me, yet i do them anyway. i think this is all a part of our fallen nature: we are tempted and compelled to do things that are not best.

Let me try to explain it again, I obviously didn't communicate it best the first time. As humans, we only do what our first love is. If we desire most to eat a piece of cake, we will eat it. If we desire most to lie to someone to get out of a situation we will do it. I'm not speaking of having 'a desire' for something and knowing it is wrong, and then not doing it because it is wrong. Because the desire in that instance would be greater in obeying what is wrong or not. We always do what we want to do most.

If that doesn't work I'm gonna have to find some quotes from others to explain it.

[cmotherofpirl]

Better get the quotes cause I am missing your point.