Is abortion EVER ok?

[Jaime]

It was my understanding that the Church's definition was similar to the medical community's. If that's not the case, then we're all on the same page.

[she_who_is_not]

I voted yes, because my sister has had two ectopic pregnancies and I thought that the procedure she had was technically an abortion. However, if ectopic pregnancies do not count, I would vote no. I have a good friend who bore a child concieved in rape, and is raising her now. I think the it has helped her heal fromt the experience, (realizing that something so good can come out of something so bad). I can only speak out of my own knowledge and experience as I am not well educated on the matter.

[Resurrexi]

abortion is always evil and never ok.

[jswranch]

When it is ok to not 'love your neighbor as yourself,' then it is ok to abort a child.

[toledo_jesus]

yeah, Father Pavone's explanation of ectopic pregnancies as provided by Cam is correct. Very sad situation.

[styx chyx]

Hey all, the replies so far have been really interesting, so please still feel free to keep voting, but I'm also going to give a couple of the unique circumstances I have come across, and would like to hear your opinions on them. I'll just give one for now.

A woman I know fell pregnant for the fourth time. However there were many, many unique problems with the child. It was 'impossible' for the child to survive past birth because of a huge number of problems with the child's vital organs, particularly the lungs, and there was (according to a number of medical practicioners, this being their area of expertise) a 90-96% chance of the child dying during the pregnancy, the mother then having to carry a dead child to term (needless to mention a huge psychological strain on any woman). The child was also having problems as far as its waste was concerned, causing a huge increase in the mother's iron levels, becoming very dangerous for the mother. There became a 50% chance of the mother dying because of this. Obviously I don't know all of the medical details of this pregnancy - this is a woman who I counselled some time ago, and not surprisingly, she wasn't too keen on discussing all of these details. The mother in question felt terribly for choosing to abort this child (she was given one day to reach a decision by the doctors) and has since been for a number of healing services, confessions etc seeking God's forgiveness for what happened.

So what do you think? In this situation, was her decision wrong? Should the mother have continued with the pregnancy risking her own life, her own psychological well-being and the child, or was she 'right' to have an abortion?

[Peccator]

No, its never acceptable.

Someone once told me I'd felt differently when I'm faced with a pregnancy that could totally destroy my future plans or life - I then came in such an situation & I can say firmly my mind was not changed in the least. Abortion stays evil.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Peccator' post='965867' date='Apr 30 2006, 07:35 AM']
No, its never acceptable.

Someone once told me I'd felt differently when I'm faced with a pregnancy that could totally destroy my future plans or life - I then came in such an situation & I can say firmly my mind was not changed in the least. Abortion stays evil.
[/quote]My response to that is: "You'd fee differently if you were the fetus and it was YOUR mom considering abortion."

[Cam42]

[quote name='styx chyx' post='965764' date='Apr 30 2006, 04:03 AM']
Hey all, the replies so far have been really interesting, so please still feel free to keep voting, but I'm also going to give a couple of the unique circumstances I have come across, and would like to hear your opinions on them. I'll just give one for now.

A woman I know fell pregnant for the fourth time. However there were many, many unique problems with the child. It was 'impossible' for the child to survive past birth because of a huge number of problems with the child's vital organs, particularly the lungs, and there was (according to a number of medical practicioners, this being their area of expertise) a 90-96% chance of the child dying during the pregnancy, the mother then having to carry a dead child to term (needless to mention a huge psychological strain on any woman). The child was also having problems as far as its waste was concerned, causing a huge increase in the mother's iron levels, becoming very dangerous for the mother. There became a 50% chance of the mother dying because of this. Obviously I don't know all of the medical details of this pregnancy - this is a woman who I counselled some time ago, and not surprisingly, she wasn't too keen on discussing all of these details. The mother in question felt terribly for choosing to abort this child (she was given one day to reach a decision by the doctors) and has since been for a number of healing services, confessions etc seeking God's forgiveness for what happened.

So what do you think? In this situation, was her decision wrong? Should the mother have continued with the pregnancy risking her own life, her own psychological well-being and the child, or was she 'right' to have an abortion?
[/quote]

If this were the case, nature would take it's toll and if the child died, the human body would react in a way that is natural. As for the emotional strain, that is a consequence of sin. While it is not the fault of any one person, and it is not a sin in and of itself, the strain that is put upon the woman should be supported and helped with through the father, the family, and the community in which she belongs (this would include her circle of friends and also her parish/church community).

Honestly, I think that when statements such as this are made, the human person is underestimated and so is the Holy Trinity. God can and often does give the strength to overcome such an emotional strain. We should not be so quick to dismiss such an internal strength. It takes fortitude. But it is something that can be dealt with and understood.

Direct abortion is never permissable.

[Jaime]

Ok so the procedure for an ectopic pregnancy is considered different than an abortion. (love learning new things) But the principle of double effect doesn't seem to be applied here and it has me curious.

If a school bus swerves out of control and is heading directly for my car, and my two choices are to hit the schoolbus full of kids (killing us all) or swerve and go over a cliff (just killing myself), double effect tells me that it is better to go off the cliff than to kill dozens. I'm not going to hell for committing suicide but I am technically committing suicide.

Isn't it the same with an ectopic pregnancy?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='styx chyx' post='965764' date='Apr 30 2006, 03:03 AM']
Hey all, the replies so far have been really interesting, so please still feel free to keep voting, but I'm also going to give a couple of the unique circumstances I have come across, and would like to hear your opinions on them. I'll just give one for now.

A woman I know fell pregnant for the fourth time. However there were many, many unique problems with the child. It was 'impossible' for the child to survive past birth because of a huge number of problems with the child's vital organs, particularly the lungs, and there was (according to a number of medical practicioners, this being their area of expertise) a 90-96% chance of the child dying during the pregnancy, the mother then having to carry a dead child to term (needless to mention a huge psychological strain on any woman). The child was also having problems as far as its waste was concerned, causing a huge increase in the mother's iron levels, becoming very dangerous for the mother. There became a 50% chance of the mother dying because of this. Obviously I don't know all of the medical details of this pregnancy - this is a woman who I counselled some time ago, and not surprisingly, she wasn't too keen on discussing all of these details. The mother in question felt terribly for choosing to abort this child (she was given one day to reach a decision by the doctors) and has since been for a number of healing services, confessions etc seeking God's forgiveness for what happened.

So what do you think? In this situation, was her decision wrong? Should the mother have continued with the pregnancy risking her own life, her own psychological well-being and the child, or was she 'right' to have an abortion?
[/quote]

It's wrong to have an abortion in this case. How has the abortion effected her psychological well-being? Not well, I'm guessing. And what a bunch of bullies these doctors are. "You have one day to make up your mind!" Or what? You're not going to perform the abortion if she comes to you a week later? Doubtful... With bullying tactics like this, I seriously doubt their medical judgement in the first place.

Seach for the thread titled something like "Why I carried my dying baby to term" or something like that.

[styx chyx]

Sorry, just to clarify Homeschoolmom, in Western Australia, abortion laws state that an abortion may only take place if there is [b]serious[/b] personal or family risk, and up to 20 weeks. After that an abortion is illegal. In this case, the woman was in her 19th week when the doctors spoke to her. She didn't have long to make up her mind because after that the abortion would be illegal.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='styx chyx' post='965764' date='Apr 30 2006, 04:03 AM']
Hey all, the replies so far have been really interesting, so please still feel free to keep voting, but I'm also going to give a couple of the unique circumstances I have come across, and would like to hear your opinions on them. I'll just give one for now.

A woman I know fell pregnant for the fourth time. However there were many, many unique problems with the child. It was 'impossible' for the child to survive past birth because of a huge number of problems with the child's vital organs, particularly the lungs, and there was (according to a number of medical practicioners, this being their area of expertise) a 90-96% chance of the child dying during the pregnancy, the mother then having to carry a dead child to term (needless to mention a huge psychological strain on any woman). The child was also having problems as far as its waste was concerned, causing a huge increase in the mother's iron levels, becoming very dangerous for the mother. There became a 50% chance of the mother dying because of this. Obviously I don't know all of the medical details of this pregnancy - this is a woman who I counselled some time ago, and not surprisingly, she wasn't too keen on discussing all of these details. The mother in question felt terribly for choosing to abort this child (she was given one day to reach a decision by the doctors) and has since been for a number of healing services, confessions etc seeking God's forgiveness for what happened.

So what do you think? In this situation, was her decision wrong? Should the mother have continued with the pregnancy risking her own life, her own psychological well-being and the child, or was she 'right' to have an abortion?
[/quote]
There is never a right to kill a child. Period.
You don't chop up a human being in little pieces and remove it, because a docter predicts the child to have a short life. If the child dies in utero then you remove the dead child by whatever appropriate means.
You don't anticipate problems and solve them by murder.

[prose]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='965061' date='Apr 29 2006, 08:22 AM']
True... so here's a question. If a woman has cancer and needs radiation or chemo but she's pregnant... can she do it knowing it would kill or harm her child? I know that many have chosen not to and died in that situation. But can she ethically choose the treatment?
[/quote]

YEs, absolutely she can! Neither mother nor child's life is more important than the other. She can also choose not to have it (as St. Beretta did - which is why she is a saint). If you want, I have references about this somewhere that I can post for you.

[quote name='styx chyx' post='965764' date='Apr 30 2006, 02:03 AM']
Hey all, the replies so far have been really interesting, so please still feel free to keep voting, but I'm also going to give a couple of the unique circumstances I have come across, and would like to hear your opinions on them. I'll just give one for now.

A woman I know fell pregnant for the fourth time. However there were many, many unique problems with the child. It was 'impossible' for the child to survive past birth because of a huge number of problems with the child's vital organs, particularly the lungs, and there was (according to a number of medical practicioners, this being their area of expertise) a 90-96% chance of the child dying during the pregnancy, the mother then having to carry a dead child to term (needless to mention a huge psychological strain on any woman). The child was also having problems as far as its waste was concerned, causing a huge increase in the mother's iron levels, becoming very dangerous for the mother. There became a 50% chance of the mother dying because of this. Obviously I don't know all of the medical details of this pregnancy - this is a woman who I counselled some time ago, and not surprisingly, she wasn't too keen on discussing all of these details. The mother in question felt terribly for choosing to abort this child (she was given one day to reach a decision by the doctors) and has since been for a number of healing services, [b]confessions etc seeking God's forgiveness for what happened.[/b]

So what do you think? In this situation, was her decision wrong? Should the mother have continued with the pregnancy risking her own life, her own psychological well-being and the child, or was she 'right' to have an abortion?
[/quote]

First of all, and most importantly, she clearly recognizes what she did was wrong, and has confessed to it and presumably received absolution. So, yes her decision was wrong, but she has asked for forgiveness. She need to have faith in God's mercy and accept that forgiveness.

Now, about the "psychological well-being", CLEARLY it didn't acheive that effect. So that is a moot point. If anything, this has caused the opposite.

No, she wasn't 'right' to have an abortion, but she was 'right' to recognize the sin, and ask for forgiveness.

Someone had posted an excellent prolife story on here about a couple whose children were born with no brains. You should really read it. It will give you an entirely new view about this.

[Desert Walker]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='965934' date='Apr 30 2006, 10:08 AM']
Ok so the procedure for an ectopic pregnancy is considered different than an abortion. (love learning new things) But the principle of double effect doesn't seem to be applied here and it has me curious.

If a school bus swerves out of control and is heading directly for my car, and my two choices are to hit the schoolbus full of kids (killing us all) or swerve and go over a cliff (just killing myself), double effect tells me that it is better to go off the cliff than to kill dozens. I'm not going to hell for committing suicide but I am technically committing suicide.

Isn't it the same with an ectopic pregnancy?
[/quote]

I'm assuming that this scenario involves a two lane road with a sheer cliff on one side and a sheer drop on the other.

I have a third option for you:

Hit your brakes and stop your car (while praying your rear-end off for a miracle that will save everybody). I have a feeling this is the kind of situation in which the miraculous intervention of supernatural beings is an automatic possibility.