Is abortion EVER ok?

[styx chyx]

Hey guys, I think it's a pretty simple question, let me know what you think. I've encountered a lot of women and girls who have had to battle the abortion problem, and some of them in some pretty unique circumstances. So please, vote and then tell me why, I'm interested!

P.S. This is the same poll as before, and thanks to you guys who helped me to fix it! Please feel free to vote again if you wish, and give me reasons for your votes!

[cmotherofpirl]

Abortion is never ok. I have no more right to kill a baby than the people living next door.
There are many excuses for murder, but there is never a legititmate reason.

[Jaime]

The best answer that I can come up with is that its never a good thing but sometimes allowable.

For example, an ectopic pregnancy.

[homeschoolmom]

Ah, but isn't that not truly an abortion? I mean, the baby doesn't survive the surgery rather than there being a "procedure" specifically to kill the baby.

[Jaime]

Its still an abortion much like spontaneous abortions are still abortions.

[homeschoolmom]

True... so here's a question. If a woman has cancer and needs radiation or chemo but she's pregnant... can she do it knowing it would kill or harm her child? I know that many have chosen not to and died in that situation. But can she ethically choose the treatment?

[Jaime]

If I recall, that falls under the principle of double effect. I've known women in that situation as well. Since the intent of the radiation is not to kill the child but to reduce the tumor, its allowable.

Either way, your heart just goes out to anyone in that situation!!

[Cam42]

Abortion is never morally allowable, under any circumstance. Please check the citations. I would also suggest taking a look at the CIC.

[quote name='CCC #2271']Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.[/quote]
[i]Didache 2,2:SCh 248,148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19,5:PG 2 777; Ad Diognetum 5,6:PG 2,1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9:PL 1,319-320.
GS 51 § 3.[/i]

[quote name='CCC #2272']Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.[/quote]
[i]CIC, can. 1398.
CIC, can. 1314.
Cf. CIC, cann. 1323-1324[/i]

[quote name='CCC #2273']The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."[/quote]
[i]CDF, Donum vitae III.
CDF, Donum vitae III.[/i]

[quote name='CCC #2274']Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."[/quote]
[i]CDF, Donum vitae I,2[/i]

[quote name='CCC #2275']"One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity" which are unique and unrepeatable.[/quote]
[i]CDF, Donum vitae I,3.
CDF, Donum vitae I,5.
CDF, Donum vitae I,6.[/i]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='965086' date='Apr 29 2006, 09:33 AM']
Either way, your heart just goes out to anyone in that situation!!
[/quote]

yeah....

[goldbug16]

Abortion is never ok. All these wacky people now adays say that President Bush is evil because he is sendinig people oiver to Iraq and they get killed. But, [I]they[I] vote for Pro-Abortion people.

[Jaime]

[quote name='goldbug16' post='965112' date='Apr 29 2006, 09:50 AM']
Abortion is never ok. All these wacky people now adays say that President Bush is evil because he is sendinig people oiver to Iraq and they get killed. But, [I]they[I] vote for Pro-Abortion people.
[/quote]


But if you voted for Bush you voted for a pro choice candidate.

[goldbug16]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='965117' date='Apr 29 2006, 08:51 AM']
But if you voted for Bush you voted for a pro choice candidate.
[/quote]


Bush is pro-life. he just doesnt rub it in peoples faces.

[Jaime]

[quote name='goldbug16' post='965125' date='Apr 29 2006, 09:54 AM']
Bush is pro-life. he just doesnt rub it in peoples faces.
[/quote]


Bush is on record for supporting exceptions to rape and incest. By definition he is prochoice.

[Cam42]

In an ectopic pregnancy, the intention is NOT to end the life of the child, but rather to remove the fallopian tube from the mother therefore saving the life of the mother.

The intent is not to abort the child. If it were, then even an ectopic pregnancy would be immoral. As it is, the child dies as an action of the medical procedure.

Here is what Fr. Pavone says about ectopic pregnancy:

[quote]There is more than one medical way of handling an ectopic pregnancy. The relevant moral question is whether the method or action is in fact a killing of the child. If so, that is a direct abortion, which is never permissible for any reason. "Direct means that the destruction of the child is willed as the end or the means to another end. Sometimes ectopic pregnancies are handled this way, killing the child but leaving the tube intact. Such an action is morally wrong.

However, if what is done is that the damaged portion of the tube is removed because of the threat it poses to the mother, that is not a direct abortion, even if the child dies. What is done is the same thing that would be done if the tube were damaged from some other cause. The mother is not saved by the death of the child but by the removal of the tube. Because the death of the child in this case is a side effect which is not intended, and because the saving of the mother's life is not brought about by the death of the child, such a removal of the damaged portion of the tube is morally permissible. The ethical rule that applies here is called the Principle of the Double Effect.[/quote]

[quote name='goldbug16' post='965125' date='Apr 29 2006, 10:54 AM']
Bush is pro-life. he just doesnt rub it in peoples faces.
[/quote]

Bush is not pro-life. This has been discussed before. I suggest that you use the search function and use Bush in the keyword line and Cam42 in the member line. Then search by post. There is substantial proof.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='965052' date='Apr 29 2006, 10:17 AM']
Its still an abortion much like spontaneous abortions are still abortions.
[/quote]

It is not a direct abortion, the intention is not murder.