hatred for bush..

[Tarcisius]

[quote]
It still amazes me the lack of knowledge that people who say they hate him, have of him.

Bush has done a great job. He was much better than Clinton. He is honest and has integrity.

There were WMD's. The war was just according to the Catechism. Michael Moore totally lied in his movie.

It should speak volumes to people who claim to be Catholic when the media and hollywood distorts the truth to the point of lying about Bush.
[/quote]

[mod]ad hominem[/mod]

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='962412' date='Apr 27 2006, 12:06 AM']
you are an idiot
[/quote]

Said the boy without any scripture, Church teachings, or Early Church Fathers to back his statement to the man with Scripture, Church teachings, and Early Church Father statements to back his statements.

hmmmm...

May God Bless you with wisdom.

[Snarf]

Speaking of which... you cherry-pick your news outlets, you cherry-pick your moral stances, you cherry-pick your use of Scripture, you cherry-pick your use of Church teachings, you cherry pick your Early Church Father statements...

I guess you've got that consistency thing going for you.

[jasJis]

Wow. This is getting somewhere. Some may expect open mindedness or willingness to give a little so as to not be caught up in hatred.

No possiblility that we can agree Clinton and Bush aren't complete imbeciles and evil in thought and deed? No possibility that we can agree Clinton and Bush aren't the personification of genious and vessels of good in every thought and deed? No possibility that they are both halfway decent men with human flaws trying to do the best they can, just disagreeing on what is best?

Nah. That's not Black/White Catholicism. How can you be right unless everyone else is completely wrong?

[Azriel]

I agree.

Did I say that out loud?

Anyway - lets bring this back around to the topic and quit bashing each other.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jasJis' post='962512' date='Apr 27 2006, 06:52 AM']
Wow. This is getting somewhere. Some may expect open mindedness or willingness to give a little so as to not be caught up in hatred.

No possiblility that we can agree Clinton and Bush aren't complete imbeciles and evil in thought and deed? No possibility that we can agree Clinton and Bush aren't the personification of genious and vessels of good in every thought and deed? No possibility that they are both halfway decent men with human flaws trying to do the best they can, just disagreeing on what is best?

Nah. That's not Black/White Catholicism. How can you be right unless everyone else is completely wrong?
[/quote]
Yep.

[indescribable]

So where do we find this information in the real world? Most news outlets are biased, or atleast have a handful of biased reporters. NO one has a "no-spin" zone, no matter how you look at it. I listen to NPR, read actual news from Washington and around the world, and conclude that our president CONDONES going agaist world regulations, basic human rights, and common sense.

why do we still have innocent farmers lying in gitmo? why are we abusing iraqis on their home turf? why are we above international law like that? oh, because of the patriot act we should be able to do anything to collect intelligence... sounds good.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='indescribable' post='963565' date='Apr 27 2006, 10:14 PM']
So where do we find this information in the real world? Most news outlets are biased, or atleast have a handful of biased reporters. [/quote]

1) You listen to both sides.
2) You look for which side is taking things out of context.
3) You find the transcripts or videos and read or watch them... not just the snippets, but the whole thing.
4) You look at many sources.
5) You apply critical thinking and common sense with the teachings of the Faith... one must know the faith well to be able to apply it... one must use proportional reasoning... 1) God 2) Human Life (specifically unborn babies and euthenasia) 3) Family - Father, Mother, and Children 4) Social Justice 5) Global Solidarity

When I started paying attention and watching, I saw the the majority of the media outright lied. Ever since before Clinton was elected. The media and the dem's running for office had to lie because they do not have the truth or want the Truth. They are the enemy of every Catholic... they want to destroy the Church and corrupt Christ's flock. They are guided by evil... they are pawns of satan. Hedonism, greed, and lies... the fruits of the media and leftist dems.

If you haven't read the bible a few times, studied the Catholic Faith in depth and really meditated on what you read then you might have a hard time apply the truth of God's Church to what really matters.

If you haven't, a chapter a day is a great way to start. At least one chapter, a bible chapter is short, but meditate on what you read. Start with the New Testament, but it is also good to know the Old Testament as well. If you find something that interests you, then keep reading, the next day, read at least one chapter.

[quote]
NO one has a "no-spin" zone, no matter how you look at it. I listen to NPR, read actual news from Washington and around the world, and conclude that our president CONDONES going agaist world regulations, basic human rights, and common sense.
[/quote]

You would be wrong. NPR is liberal / humanist garbage on a super spin cycle. NPR spins so much they lie. No country or group of countries has authority over the USA. You have a lot to learn of morals and human rights. You should read the bible a few dozen times. We are to help those who CANNOT help themselves. More people were dying before the war than after it. Saddam was a monster like Hitler... He slaughtered innocent people. The Iraqi people want us there to help them get to where they can protect themselves. If you believe he go against human rights and common sense you have a lot to learn.

I've seen and heard the media (especially NPR) take things out of context and warp what was said to the point of lying... The EXACT same way Jack Chick lies about the Catholic Church. They only tell you what they want you to hear that will get you to draw a wrong conclusion.

You want to talk about unjust and human rights?! We have a right to know the facts and decide for ourselves. As I continued to watch and see first hand the lies, I could not believe that they are allowed to get away with it.... So I had to stop watching because I was furious everytime I watch the news or democrats because they were deciving so many people to get their way... they lied about any republican that was in the news... There are a few reps just as bad, but far fewer than the dems... and there are a few well meaning dems, but none at the national level. I started watching and checking again about 6 years ago. The dems and media have only gotten worse.

[quote]
why do we still have innocent farmers lying in gitmo? why are we abusing iraqis on their home turf? why are we above international law like that? oh, because of the patriot act we should be able to do anything to collect intelligence... sounds good.
[/quote]

You have no basis to think innocent farmers are in gitmo.

We are not abusing iraqi's. There might be a hand full of soldiers doing some kind of abuse but to say we are abusing them is like saying all police are crooked and don't call them when you need help. Why would you think they want us there if that was really happening?!
There is no authority for "International law". The UN is an evil organization. They force abortions on women in countries they "help" and they experiment on innocents in third world countries.


Don't be a media zombie, please, learn to think and evaluate your sources. People who support the killing of innocent babies and/or same sex marriages WILL NOT think anything is wrong with lying... Nothing they say can be trusted. Nothing... Everytime I have seen them talk they lie in one way, shape, or form.

This is where common sense comes into play... there are a lot of people who lie, those who see nothing wrong with killing the unborn they will lie... it is a serious disordered moral sense they have, if you can even call it a "moral" sense... they are senseless.

Think about the sins and then weigh them against each other...

Killing is worse than lying... someone who lies might be against killing the innocent, but someone who kills or supports the killing of the innocent will have no problem with lying because they believe everyone can make their own choice and right/wrong are simply points of view that are ok to change - as long as you agree with them.

Remember, news is about sensaltionalism and the left like to stir hate because it works, it worked for Hitler and it works for the left, at least for the people who do not look for themselves... they want you to watch and read their news. National and many local journalists are rarely about facts anymore, they are about getting the by line... they are about meeting their personal agenda or their editors... they are about keeping you in a state of fear so you will depend on them... it's called job security without integrity.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[indescribable]

the actual reports from gitmo state, albeit reluctantly, the origins of its prisoners (this comes after the UN asked for it many times), and in a few cases, the accounts of the prisoners lives. i don't think they can make that up. or i don't think they'd want to. so those were actually released, you can view them on the internet wherever you'd like. i got it off of a link off of the washington post. i know that isn't the most conservative of programs, but i like it.

i suppose the UN isn't as great as it could be. but i think something needs to be there to try to preserve some semblence of global unity. they're lilly livered when it comes to action at times, but they do good works too. i've been considering getting into their relief program for children after college.

well i've heard over atleast 5-6 news sites today about how we're being investigated in europe becuz of our black sites. now that's ignorance if you dont' believe those exist. or if one could think that we don't employ even more illegal tactics there.

we've been lying to the international community. we said we wouldn't torture people. and we are. and that's not a big deal to the government. and who does it help if they go back to iraq with a new hatred?

why does everything have to be told in lies? a liberal isn't the devil, or its accomplice. i think that bill o reilley is much more annoying than anyone on CNN. his ideas are offensive, as is his attitude. or... the one my father makes me listen too... the one that said "if there weren't black people, there wouldn't be as much crime." he wasn't such of a great guy sometimes, advocating assasination. oh and haven't other repubs called for that too? of hugo chavez?

what i don't get really, is how repubs are soooo much better than dems. they believe it's okay to kill a fully formed, fully functional (and sometimes not functional) human being. some of those people are innocent too; either actually or mentally innocent of their crime. that's sad to me. to think that in my president's home state, murder int he public eye is commonplace and accepted because it's the will of the government. i can't stand for that at all. they can try to lie and say it's okay too, but shouldn't we know from the Bible that it isn't?

[indescribable]

i just found this quote, and it made me happy and think

God is, even though the whole world deny him.
Truth stands, even if there be no public support.
It is self-sustained.

-Mohandas Gandhi

now he was a great man. also had quotes describing the ultimate sacrafice- giving yourself up while being innocent. most universal truths travel. its encouraging to me.




oh and i saw on a conservative site a link to a book that was completey untrue about how Islam is a terribly violent religion and how terrible it is. Then another link to a site that had a shirt that said "celebrate diversity" with many different guns displayed.

[ironmonk]

We are not torturing people. If you think that making someone listen to loud music and sleep depervation is torture, then you are naive.

Humiliation is not torture.

Want to know torture, look at what Saddam and his boys did. How about shoving a garden hose up someone and then yanking it out quick to disembowel them.

As for the UN... they do not do good work. They call forcing abortions on damaged countries relief.


[quote]what i don't get really, is how repubs are soooo much better than dems. they believe it's okay to kill a fully formed, fully functional (and sometimes not functional) human being. [/quote]

Maybe it's because you don't understand proprotional reasoning and you haven't looked at the facts... And you don't know the Catholic Faith as you should.

Around 1000 or less convicted criminals have been executed in the USA since the 70's. According the Church the government has that right. Therefore it is not evil. Granted, some might have been innocent which is sad... but this is NO reason not to vote republican. Saving the unborn and preventing euthenasia is the first priority for a Catholic. Protecting the family is the second... protecting the family means to reject all proposals and those who support them for same sex unions/marriages.

Around 45,000,000+ babies have been killed because of abortion. It is a fact that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. This is an infallible teaching of God. It only takes a little common sense to realize why it is a sin to vote for anyone who supports abortion or same sex unions.

If all the candidates support both abortion and same sex unions then it is not a sin to vote for one of them because those are your only option.

You might want to read Scripture and the Catechism daily. If you want me to show you where everything is, then just ask.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[quote name='indescribable' post='963746' date='Apr 28 2006, 12:04 AM']
i just found this quote, and it made me happy and think

God is, even though the whole world deny him.
Truth stands, even if there be no public support.
It is self-sustained.

-Mohandas Gandhi

now he was a great man. also had quotes describing the ultimate sacrafice- giving yourself up while being innocent. most universal truths travel. its encouraging to me.
oh and i saw on a conservative site a link to a book that was completey untrue about how Islam is a terribly violent religion and how terrible it is. Then another link to a site that had a shirt that said "celebrate diversity" with many different guns displayed.
[/quote]


Gandhi was not a great man. He was a peaceful man. He did not know the True God.

Islam is a violent religion... it's more of a political system than a religion. You obviously haven't read much of the Quran or studied it much. Islam is violent and condones torture. If a child steals, they loose their hand... if they run from getting caught, they loose their feet... a 5 year old child. This is in the Quran. Because of Islam we had to have the Crusades. Islam is evil... but there are some peaceful muslims... "some". Why do you think wars haven't stopped in the middle east since 700 AD?! Because Islam means peace? NO... it means submission... in other words make your enemies submit to you.

[Snarf]

I'd be surprised if Ghandi had read the Quran, what with being Hindu and all. Or maybe I'm just trying too hard to make sense of a totally senseless post. I don't know if it'd be more gracious to attribute the nonsensical nature of that post to misinformation or to an utter lack of attention span, so I won't take a side at the moment.

Also, I know you probably learned those damning Quran quotes from some militantly right-wing website and don't know any better, but when quoting the Quran you have to explicitly denote whether it comes from the "eternal" (and subsequently universal to all of Islam) revelation, or the non-eternal revelation. I know your ilk love to go on tirades about the two largest factions of Islam, the Shia and the Sunni, and change your opinion every few days on which one is the lesser evil, but what a Shi'ite calls the Quran MIGHT NOT BE THE SAME as what a Sunni calls the Quran.

Case in point: what you're doing is logically equalent to taking Hosea 10:14 (And a tumult will rise among your people, and all of your fortresses will be ruined, just as Shalman ruined Beth-Arbel in a day's battle. Mothers will be dashed to pieces with their sons), Hosea 13:16 (Samaria will be desolated, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword, their infants will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open), Isaiah 13:16 (Their infants will be dashed to pieces right before their eyes. Their houses will be ruined and their wives raped), and construing therefrom that the Christian God has an abounding love for infanticide and abortion.

As for sleep deprivation and humiliation not being torture, (which is funny, because Augustine talked about a traitor who was not only TORTURED but KILLED by sleep deprivation), your argument is "what we're doing isn't as bad as what Saddam did, so it's not bad at all."

When you brush off something as fundamentally un-Christian as torture, you demonstrate that your problem is not poorly Catholicizing politics, but VERY poorly politicizing Catholicism.

[jswranch]

George W Bush may become known as one of our great Presidents. I have really enjoyed watching him learn and grow.

[quote name='toledo_jesus' post='961547' date='Apr 26 2006, 08:35 AM']
I think it's a good idea for the President to divide his time between Washington and Crawford...security wise.
[/quote]
You are not a Secret Service agent. Crawford is fine. Other presidents spent time in Camp David: that was secure. Technology allows him to do his job from Texas.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='961570' date='Apr 26 2006, 08:51 AM']
Last I checked we are supposed to hate all sin, but not the individual sinner. Are you qualified to decide his actions are evil or sinful?
[/quote]
Amen

[quote name='Red Knight' post='961576' date='Apr 26 2006, 08:59 AM']
Is war evil?
[/quote]
Yes and no. It is an ugly matter, but it certainly can be justified.

[quote name='jasJis' post='961728' date='Apr 26 2006, 10:40 AM']
What should we do in Iran, based on what we've experienced with Iraq?
[/quote]
If we go in, we will have to do the same thing we did in Iraq (dissolve then rebuild govt).

[Jaime]

Can people be critical of the president? Its our responsibility. The President answers to us. He is accountable to us.

As far as torture, Bush has stated that he reserves the right to do so. Anyone arguing to the contrary is ignoring the facts of the torture ban that congress passed.

As far as war, the Holy Father and the Vatican have spoken out against a pre-emptive strike doctrine. Pre-emptive attacks (like Iraq) do not fit the criteria of Just War theory no matter how much people try to rationalize.

Bush, though pro-choice, has brought two pro-life justices to the Supreme Court. For that I thank him. Aside from that, he has advocated huge spending and cronyism. He has shown more loyalty to his friends than he has to his constituents. We have every right to vocalize our criticism.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Snarf' post='963954' date='Apr 28 2006, 09:02 AM']
your argument is "what we're doing isn't as bad as what Saddam did, so it's not bad at all."


[/quote]

Again you lack thought and logic.

That is not my arguement.

Methods must be used to get information out of people. These methods are not torture.


[quote name='hot stuff' post='963975' date='Apr 28 2006, 09:20 AM']
Can people be critical of the president? Its our responsibility. The President answers to us. He is accountable to us.

As far as torture, Bush has stated that he reserves the right to do so. Anyone arguing to the contrary is ignoring the facts of the torture ban that congress passed.

As far as war, the Holy Father and the Vatican have spoken out against a pre-emptive strike doctrine. Pre-emptive attacks (like Iraq) do not fit the criteria of Just War theory no matter how much people try to rationalize.

Bush, though pro-choice, has brought two pro-life justices to the Supreme Court. For that I thank him. Aside from that, he has advocated huge spending and cronyism. He has shown more loyalty to his friends than he has to his constituents. We have every right to vocalize our criticism.
[/quote]

Bush is not pro-choice. Bush has done more for the pro-life movement than any other president.

To be critcal of the president yes... but with truth, not lies, partial truths and stupid assumptions.

Yes it did fit the criteria. Lives have been saved because of it, a greater good came out of it. The Pope is not going to know all the validating points for it. It was a just war and after the fact it is clear for anyone who has the ability to think and apply Catholic teachings.