Iraq and Iran

[jasJis]

Iran is quickly becoming a problem to world peace. The similarities with Iraq and significant.
Iran is pursuing dangerous technolgy.
Nations of the world do not trust Iran's 'motives'.
Iran cannot reasonably demonstrate a need for nuclear energy.
Iran is violating the Nuclear non-Proliferation agreement it made with the UN.
Iran has repeatedly voiced the opinion the Jews should leave Isreal and turn it over to the Palistinians.
Iran has repeatedly voiced the opinion that Jews and Muslims cannot live in peaceful harmony.

The questions are what can any powers in the world do?
What can the UN do?
Do you trust the UN to do the right thing?
Does the UN have any real power?
What are Sanctions and what do the do?
Would Sanctions alone have any effect?
Is it possible and/or probable that Iran will develop a nuclear bomb, or at least, provide enriched plutonium for a 'dirty' bomb?
If the UN or US or Isreal or any other combination of Countries do nothing and Iran shoots a missile or sets a nuclear bomb off in Isreal, are they culpable for not defending those people when we could have?
If Iran provides plutonium to terrorists and they create a dirty bomb, what is our culpability for the power we just allowed them to have?
Considering the Just War Theory (and note, it's THEORY, not Dogma), how does the strictures apply in various scenarios?

[dUSt]

I think that all military action should be decided by the pope. The UN should meet, vote, and then pass it to the pope who should have veto power.

[jasJis]

The guy running the UN and the UN in general has a cleaner and higher moral standard that can come from the US? Why the Pope? Is he infallible in military strategy?

[stbernardLT]

Yeah, the pope declaring war on Muslim Nations. Now that would be a real holy war. ARE YOU FREAKIN' NUTS!!

[Red Knight]

[quote name='jasJis' post='961381' date='Apr 26 2006, 07:08 AM']
Iran is quickly becoming a problem to world peace. The similarities with Iraq and significant.
Iran is pursuing dangerous technolgy.
Nations of the world do not trust Iran's 'motives'.
Iran cannot reasonably demonstrate a need for nuclear energy.
Iran is violating the Nuclear non-Proliferation agreement it made with the UN.
Iran has repeatedly voiced the opinion the Jews should leave Isreal and turn it over to the Palistinians.
Iran has repeatedly voiced the opinion that Jews and Muslims cannot live in peaceful harmony.

The questions are what can any powers in the world do?
What can the UN do?
Do you trust the UN to do the right thing?
Does the UN have any real power?
What are Sanctions and what do the do?
Would Sanctions alone have any effect?
Is it possible and/or probable that Iran will develop a nuclear bomb, or at least, provide enriched plutonium for a 'dirty' bomb?
If the UN or US or Isreal or any other combination of Countries do nothing and Iran shoots a missile or sets a nuclear bomb off in Isreal, are they culpable for not defending those people when we could have?
If Iran provides plutonium to terrorists and they create a dirty bomb, what is our culpability for the power we just allowed them to have?
Considering the Just War Theory (and note, it's THEORY, not Dogma), how does the strictures apply in various scenarios?
[/quote]

The UN is a gutless excuse for an "International Body." The UN is powerless without military backing from a super-power (US) or coalition of major players in international policy. Iran is a problem, and one that the UN must deal with. The US is too tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan to press Iran militarily.

Oh, by the way, you enrich uranium, not plutonium.

Red

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='dUSt' post='961456' date='Apr 26 2006, 11:29 AM']
I think that all military action should be decided by the pope. The UN should meet, vote, and then pass it to the pope who should have veto power.
[/quote]

We should give soveriegnty of the United States to the UN...

Has everyone forgotten the passage in the Bible on government authority?

[Era Might]

[quote]It was right to resist the war and its threats of destruction. It should never be the responsibility of just one nation to make decisions for the world, so we must still work with the U.N.

--Pope Benedict XVI[/quote]

[quote name='jasJis' post='961381' date='Apr 26 2006, 09:08 AM']
Considering the Just War Theory (and note, it's THEORY, not Dogma), how does the strictures apply in various scenarios?
[/quote]

The conditions for just war are Catholic doctrine, that is, formal moral principles set forward by the Magisterium.

They are "theory" in the sense that they are theoretical, not bound to any specific instance of application. They must, of necessity, always remain "theory" because temporal circumstances change over time.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Era Might

[jasJis]

Whatever.

Why is it that people can only nit pick about details and not attempt to answer the questions actually asked?

Okay so you're smart. Apply it to the questions I asked.

[Era Might]

I answered your point about Just War doctrine because it is something I could answer competently.

I have no idea how to apply it in this situation, and I didn't pretend to know how. I try to stick to what I know. It has nothing to do with being "smart".

[Red Knight]

[quote name='jasJis' post='961381' date='Apr 26 2006, 07:08 AM']
What can the UN do?
[/quote]
Talk about how poorly Iran is behaving and issue sanctions.
[quote]
Do you trust the UN to do the right thing?
[/quote]
No, I do not.
[quote]
Does the UN have any real power?
[/quote]
No, and thank God for that.
[quote]
What are Sanctions and what do the do?
[/quote]
Sanctions are political actions agreed upon by member states to influence the behavior of a 'rogue' state. An example would be trade embargoes and the like.
[quote]
Would Sanctions alone have any effect?
[/quote]
Did they in Iraq? All sanctions did in Iraq was change the immoral methods Saddam's regime used to meet their desired ends. For example, Oil for Food.
[quote]
Is it possible and/or probable that Iran will develop a nuclear bomb, or at least, provide enriched plutonium for a 'dirty' bomb?
[/quote]
I believe it to be both possible and probable that Iran will utilize it's nuclear power program to develop a radiation weapon, be it a bomb or something else. Plenty of non-plutonium material is available for use in a dirty bomb and actually radioactive iodine is extremely effective in producing the desired result of a dirty bomb. Plutonium is best used for fission based explosions, more bang for the buck.
[quote]
If the UN or US or Isreal or any other combination of Countries do nothing and Iran shoots a missile or sets a nuclear bomb off in Isreal, are they culpable for not defending those people when we could have?
[/quote]
Morally? Yes. Legally? No.
[quote]
If Iran provides plutonium to terrorists and they create a dirty bomb, what is our culpability for the power we just allowed them to have?
[/quote]
Let's ask some questions regarding this point. What are we allowing them to have? Is it our duty or our place in global society to dictate what sources for power generation a nation uses? A nation has a right to provide basic necessities to it's people, such as electricity, who are we to tell them how to do it? How do we prevent a nation that generates power via nuclear fission from using the process to create material for a fission based weapon?
[quote]
Considering the Just War Theory (and note, it's THEORY, not Dogma), how does the strictures apply in various scenarios?
[/quote]
Maybe I am just a warmonger, but my view on military might is fairly utilitarian. A nations military is simply another means to a political end. I'll admit that I am no Just War scholar.

Red

[Mercy me]

They UN do anything? Of course they will do something. Sudan (where they are currently conducting genocide against Christians) recently chaired the UN Human Rights Commission. Get real. They will probably put Iran incharge of enforcing the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='962276' date='Apr 26 2006, 07:40 PM']They UN do anything? Of course they will do something. Sudan (where they are currently conducting genocide against Christians) recently chaired the UN Human Rights Commission. Get real. They will probably put Iran incharge of enforcing the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty.[/quote]Mercy me, what an extremist. They wouldn't do that. Though Iran is on the Dis-Armament Committe to get Isreal to dis-arm.

[quote]UN-Disarmament-Iran
United Nations Commission on Disarmament on Tuesday elected Iran as deputy for Asian nations.

The UN Commission opened its annual meeting on Monday which will work until April 28.

The UN Commission on Disarmament which is subsidiary organ of the General Assembly will review disarmament and international security.

The Commission could not reach unanimity in the past two year owing to US objection to put disarmament on the agenda of the specialized commission and adopt an action plan for enforcing disarmament at international level.

Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) member states have pushed for the agenda of disarmament and Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in the current annual meeting.

NAM member states issued a statement on the first day of the annual meeting calling on nuclear states to respect their commitments of demolishing their nuclear arms.

They also called on Israel to sign up to NPT and give access to all its nuclear sites for monitoring by UN nuclear agency.[/quote]

[Desert Walker]

[quote]
The questions are what can any powers in the world do?
[/quote]
We must all admit that we can speak of the nations of the world as "world powers." Because of advanced travel and communications technology, the world is no longer composed of individual nations in the old sense of "nation." The pope knows this, which is why he continues to support the existence of the UN.

[quote]What can the UN do?[/quote]
Be a forum for honest negotiations. The only difficult thing is that there don't seem to be two world leaders on this planet who fully trust one another. I don't think honesty is possible anymore. The honest leader is the naive leader.

[quote]Do you trust the UN to do the right thing?[/quote]
No, I don't. I think, in the end, the UN and U.S. (is there a difference?) will provoke a war with Iran. They are both too arrogant to assuage the arrogance of Iran.

[quote]Does the UN have any real power?[/quote]
Only through the U.S.

[quote]What are Sanctions and what do they do?[/quote]
They are economic restrictions. The U.S., for example, would refuse to trade products with Iran. It would basically make the buying of Iranian market goods illegal in the world market.

[quote]Would Sanctions alone have any effect?[/quote]
They may provoke Iran's government to make alliances, in defiance of UN authority, with other Middle-Eastern countries, or with China, or Russia. Those countries that ally with Iran would also be in defiance of UN (and U.S.) authority. Such a result would further minimize the credibility of both the UN and US in the minds of the world's people. And this would send us back to a geo-political situation similar to the one that existed prior to WWII, or perhaps more accurately, during the Cold War.

Another result of sanctions might be that Iran uses military action against its neighbors to obtain the resources it needs to survive. Or it could lead to the overthrow of Iran's government by discontented Iranian citizens. This, though, is unlikely given what I've heard is the healthy state of Iranian nationalism.

And, of course, sanctions could lead to the capitulation of Iran to UN/US world authority.


I'll get the other questions later.

Edited April 27, 2006 by Desert Walker

[musturde]

[quote name='stbernardLT' post='961562' date='Apr 26 2006, 09:46 AM']
Yeah, the pope declaring war on Muslim Nations. Now that would be a real holy war. ARE YOU FREAKIN' NUTS!!
[/quote]


Haha, Calm down, I believe it was just a joke...

[musturde]

[quote name='jasJis' post='961381' date='Apr 26 2006, 07:08 AM']
Iran is quickly becoming a problem to world peace. The similarities with Iraq and significant.
Iran is pursuing dangerous technolgy.

Nations of the world do not trust Iran's 'motives'.
Iran cannot reasonably demonstrate a need for nuclear energy.
Iran is violating the Nuclear non-Proliferation agreement it made with the UN.
Iran has repeatedly voiced the opinion the Jews should leave Isreal and turn it over to the Palistinians.
Iran has repeatedly voiced the opinion that Jews and Muslims cannot live in peaceful harmony.
[/quote]

First, I'll start by saying that any sentence with the word "Jew" in it is a common belief of most people in the Middle East. If you would add that he's actually going to act on these instincts, then I would take that into consideration.

[quote]
What can the UN do?
[/quote]
"Avoid war at all costs."

[quote]
The questions are what can any powers in the world do?
[/quote]
Ignore the UN.
[quote]
Do you trust the UN to do the right thing?
[/quote]
Yes
[quote]Does the UN have any real power?[/quote]
Kind of. I mean they can use force.
[quote]
What are Sanctions and what do the do?[/quote]
Is this some sort of essay? Are you writing a paper? (haha jp)
"A coercive measure adopted usually by several nations acting together against a nation violating international law." (usually done through trade)
www.dictionary.com

[quote]Would Sanctions alone have any effect?[/quote]
No.
[quote]
Is it possible and/or probable that Iran will develop a nuclear bomb, or at least, provide enriched plutonium for a 'dirty' bomb?[/quote]
Not without the Israeli's whining enough to get the whole worlds attention of it.



[quote]If the UN or US or Isreal or any other combination of Countries do nothing and Iran shoots a missile or sets a nuclear bomb off in Isreal, are they culpable for not defending those people when we could have?[/quote]
No. If Israel does nothing about it(which most likely will not happen), then it's Israels fault. Now if Israel really tries to do something and the UN nor the US do anything about it... Then, it'd be the UNs fault first and then the US' fault to a degree (since I know they wouldnt ignore Israel unless there was something more important at hand).


[quote]If Iran provides plutonium to terrorists and they create a dirty bomb, what is our culpability for the power we just allowed them to have?[/quote]
It would obviously be out of somewhat of an ignorance (since we're not positive what their real intentions are... yeah right). I would say it would somewhat lie on us and somewhat lie on the UN. If Israel doesn't do something big to try to stop it, it'd be more of Israels fault than anyone's (Israel's not the innocent child everyone makes it out to be).

[quote]Considering the Just War Theory (and note, it's THEORY, not Dogma), how does the strictures apply in various scenarios?[/quote]

hmm...

Well I'm not going to reread the Just War Theory considering its right around 5:07 am and I'm up for no apparent reason. However, I will give you one scenario which would be fitting for war... and one that is not.

Fitting:
Irans President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, declares War on the United States and promises to kill every living Israeli that can not recite the alphabet backwards within 15 seconds.

Not Fitting:
The United States going to war on unverified facts (when they could just assasinate Mahmoud...). When the UN knows that Iran is not going to harm anyone with its plutonuim and still decides to destroy Iran because of its evil "non Holocaust believing" (which is not true... he believes it was over exaggerated) president.