Saved but not part of the Church, fully?

[jezic]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='961670' date='Apr 26 2006, 11:15 AM']
stop twisting words adam, i did not say I know that im going to hell. Of course I have hope but its also a reality that I deserve hell more than anyone. Also that wasnt a revelation by a young boy, that was told By the Blessed Mother to Sister Lucia, she revieled it later in her diary. It would make sense that you would make light of the revelations of Fatima. The significance is that this young, near perfect child, who the Blessed Mother knew would die shortly after was in danger of eternal damnation. If that doesnt make you tremble i dont know what would.
[/quote]

Mary says in another apparition that most go to Purgatory.

It might only be that he would have to spend more time there. Your previous comment only commits it to being difficult, not impossible, to enter Heaven. That does not automatically mean that he is going to hell. It is not a choice between two but rather three.

[N/A Gone]

Most of us will need to spend time in purgatory. Embrace it. Protestants will spend time there just as us. Now, a protestant is not a protester. That is a claim i made in my naive days. These are the childrens children of those who protested. These people are children of God, with real faith. They are our seperated brothers. Not our lil retarded half brother. Our legit brother. They are not protesting. They are living in their own eccesiology. I recommend you read Mother Church by Braaten. (*our dear Dullies has a review on it) protestantism was intended as a temporary thing while the church fixed things that the original protesters believed need to be fixed. The problem is those temporary colonies have turned into nations. With their own traditions and culture. They do not want to abandon this tradition, nor should they. We need to find an ecumenical way of sorting out the truth, showing light and bringing children back into the family. Not asking them to surrender the very way they know our mutual savior. I feel the problem now is a lack of information, as much as a dehumanizing effort to convert the other. The average protestant does not bash the catholic church, they bash this symbol of oppresion that does not exist. God is the judge, not us. lets be glad for that.

[Myles Domini]

Just to emphasise something Brendan said:

[quote]Inculpable Ignorance

40. Which Protestants are not guilty of the sin of heresy, but commit other great sins?

Those who are Protestants without their fault and who never had an opportunity of knowing better, are not guilty of the sin of heresy; but if they do not live up to the dictates of their conscience, they will be lost, not on account of their heresy, which for them was no sin, but on account of other grievous sins which they committed.

41. Will those heretics be saved, who are not guilty of the sin of heresy, and are faithful in living up to the dictates of their conscience?

Inculpable ignorance of the true religion excuses a heathen from the sin of infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy. But such ignorance has never been the means of salvation. From the fact that a person who lives up to the dictates of his conscience, and who cannot sin against the true religion on account of being ignorant of it, many have drawn the false conclusion that such a person is saved, or, in other words, is in the state of sanctifying grace, thus making ignorance a means of salvation or justification.

If we sincerely wish not to make great mistakes in explaining the great revealed truth, “Out of the Church there is no salvation,” we must remember:

a) That there are four great truths of salvation, which everyone must know and believe in order to be saved;

b) That no one can go to Heaven unless he is in the state of sanctifying grace;

c) That, in order to receive sanctifying grace, the soul must be prepared for it by divine Faith, Hope, Charity, true sorrow for sin with the firm purpose of doing all that God requires the soul to believe and to do, in order to be saved;

d) That this preparation of the soul cannot be brought by inculpable ignorance. And if such ignorance cannot even dispose the soul for receiving the grace of justification, it can much less give this grace to the soul. Inculpable ignorance has never been a means of grace or salvation, not even for the inculpably ignorant people that live up to their conscience. But of this class of ignorant persons we say, with Saint Thomas Aquinas, that God in His mercy will lead these souls to the knowledge of the necessary truths of salvation, even send them an angel, if necessary, to instruct them, rather than let them perish without their fault. If they accept this grace, they will be saved as Catholics. [/quote]

Is this so hard to understand everyone?

Blessed Pope Pius IX; pray for us.

[Apotheoun]

The following is an excerpt from the 1949 letter of the Holy Office to Cardinal Cushing:

[quote]In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing.  This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance ([u]Denzinger[/u], nn. 796, 797, 807).

The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation.  [i][b]Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.[/i][/b]

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; [i][b]but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.[/i][/b]

These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, [u]On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ[/u] (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.).  For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.

Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed."

Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who "are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church" (AAS, 1. c., p. 243).  [i][b]With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion[/i][/b] (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution, [u]Singulari quadam[/u], in [u]Denzinger[/u], n. 1641 ff.; also Pope Pius IX in the encyclical letter, [u]Quanto conficiamur moerore[/u], in [u]Denzinger[/u], n. 1677).[/quote]

[Myles Domini]

Appy makes a good point in emboldening the last part of the Cardinal's document and that is: Evangelising and making converts is always a good thing.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Archbishop Cushing on the letter posted by Apotheoun:
[quote]The Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has examined again the problem of Father Leonard Feeney and St. Benedict Center. Having studied carefully the publications issued by the Center, and having considered all the circumstances of this case, the Sacred Congregation has ordered me to publish, in its entirety, the letter which the same Congregation sent me on the 8th of August, 1949. The Supreme Pontiff, His Holiness, [b]Pope Pius XII, has given full approval to this decision[/b]. In due obedience, therefore, we publish, in its entirety, the Latin text of the letter as received from the Holy Office with an English translation of the same approved by the Holy See.

Given at Boston, Mass., the 4th day of September, 1952.

Walter J. Furlong, Chancellor

Richard J. Cushing, Archbishop of Boston.[/quote]
And...
[quote]Pope Bl. Pius IX
[b]We all know that those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life[/b]. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment.
[i]On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, no. 7)[/i]

It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. [b]On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord[/b].
[i]On the Church in Austria (Singulari Quidam, no. 7)[/i][/quote]

[quote]Pope Pius XII

As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly.[194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ"[195] and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home. [i](Mystici Corporis Christi, no. 103).[/i]

Footnotes:

[size=1]194. Cf. Encyclical Letter, Summi Pontificatus: A.A.S., 1939, p. 419.

195. Iren., Adv. Haer., IV, 33, 7: Migne, P.G., VII, 1076.

196. Cf. Pius IX, Iam Vos Omnes, 13 Sept. 1868: Act. Conc. Vat., C.L.VII, 10.

197. Cf. Gelas. I, Epist., XIV: Migne, P.L. LIX, 89.[/size][/quote]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='961592' date='Apr 26 2006, 09:08 AM']Most likely I will not make it to Heaven, and neither will a vast majority of "Catholics".
[/quote]
I agree that most people will not make it to heaven. I think, however, we need not to have this attitude about ourselves. I think we must always believe that we can have a good chance of going to heaven, provided you stay out of carp , but if we think things such as "MOST LIKELY I will not make it to heaven"(my emphasis) it is bordering on the sin of despair. We need to be careful of this. I think it is much much harder to get to heaven then what many people think. I think far fewer people are going to heaven. I think I need to recieve a LOT of grace and work very hard to accept and comply with that grace to get to heaven, but I also believe I will go to heaven.

[Brother Adam]

I find the notion of "It is hard to get to heaven" dangerous as well. We have to be very careful to make the distinction between grace and works, faith and cooperation. Whether or not it is hard to get to heaven cannot be based on if "I did enough" but rather, "am I in the grace of God."

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states on merit first:

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises
from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work
of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, 306
and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so 155
that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to 970
the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself
is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the
predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the
divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's
gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love,
making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the
promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good
works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before
us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts

When we wonder are most people going to go to heaven, most people are not Catholic. Nor are most people even Christian. Then of Catholics themselves, if we ask are most going to go to heaven, I think the question is first a question of love. God is love as much as God is judge. God desires that no one is lost and based on a summary of the documents available to us, I think our attitude towards salvation should then not be fear: "Most people probably will not go to heaven" but instead of love "By grace many will go to heaven." I don't see the first statement as a statement of hope, though it seems to be prominent in "Traditionalist" circles, that is those Catholics who care more about the letter of the law than the intent of the law, than those who seek salvation in the Catholic Church through submission and guidence to the Holy See. It seems "Traditionalists" of this sort base their salvation out of fear ("Am I good enough?") rather than basing their salvation in the love of God, a loving Father. Fear saves in the confessional, to be sure, but love is a greater act.

The Catechism goes on to say:

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no 1998
one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at thebeginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity,
we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for
our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the
attainment of eternal life.

Yet this is qualified because the Holy Catholic Church said even Semi-Pelagianism is a heresy. It qualifies it in the next paragraph:

"The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our 492
merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love,
ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently
their merit before God and before men."

The Catholic faith, our faith in itself, and our judgment I don't believe will be measured on one hand first if we believe in Christ and then if we did enough works, but the love of Christ and works are inseperably tied up together as much as the divine and human natures are inseperable. I don't believe Paul had to question his salvation based on if he was good enough, but rather that we can choose at any time to be outside of the Catholic faith, that are able to choose not God instead of God.

[MichaelFilo]

Again, from what is gathered, invincibale ignorance does not save. However, God will not let those who are invincibaly ignorant to perish; therefore the understanding that he will lead them to the Faith if by allowing them to come upon the Church or by sending an angel makes sense. Invincibale ignorance, however, will not save someone who commits mortal sin, or so it seems (that is to not follow natural law written in all men's hearts).

Therefore, it makes sense, since most Protestants (people) commit mortal sin, then what we must conclude is many will not be saved because of an explicit severing from the Church by that choice of action. The only way to reenter the Church, Catholic or otherwise, is by the Sacrament of Confession, which, since Protestants have no valid priests, nor do they submit to the Church, will not receive. It seems therefore that they are saved in their baptism (the Vatican II article on Ecumensism(sp?) seems to agree with this notion, thanks goes to Adam for making my curiosity grow enough to read it), but just like Catholics, by mortal sin do they severe themselves from the Church, but unlike Catholics, they have no way of reentering. While we know that God may forgive sins outside of the Sacrament if an honest and fully contrite heart is offered up, we also know that this means is not the regular means of receiving forgiveness, and that it is sensible to assume that few men will ever be able to come before the Lord with a contrite heart without someone working in Persona Christi to be a source of chasticement and forgiveness (or a means, rather).

God bless,
Mikey

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Some more thoughts...

We certainly can not presume ignorance in anyone and most continue to evangelize all people. The Church no doubt teaches that salvation is possible for the invincibly ignorant, the question is who is invincibly ignorant. I would think such a person, if they followed the precepts of the natural law as best they could, would not be guilty of mortal sin because I doubt they could fully know what it was without the help of divine revelation. I think forgiveness could be more lenient as well, as an invincibly ignorant person does not know of/have access to the Sacrament of Penance.

[jasJis]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' post='963167' date='Apr 27 2006, 02:48 PM']
Again, from what is gathered, invincibale ignorance does not save. However, God will not let those who are invincibaly ignorant to perish; therefore the understanding that he will lead them to the Faith if by allowing them to come upon the Church or by sending an angel makes sense. Invincibale ignorance, however, will not save someone who commits mortal sin, or so it seems (that is to not follow natural law written in all men's hearts).

Therefore, it makes sense, since most Protestants (people) commit mortal sin, then what we must conclude is many will not be saved because of an explicit severing from the Church by that choice of action. The only way to reenter the Church, Catholic or otherwise, is by the Sacrament of Confession, which, since Protestants have no valid priests, nor do they submit to the Church, will not receive. It seems therefore that they are saved in their baptism (the Vatican II article on Ecumensism(sp?) seems to agree with this notion, thanks goes to Adam for making my curiosity grow enough to read it), but just like Catholics, by mortal sin do they severe themselves from the Church, but unlike Catholics, they have no way of reentering. While we know that God may forgive sins outside of the Sacrament if an honest and fully contrite heart is offered up, we also know that this means is not the regular means of receiving forgiveness, and that it is sensible to assume that few men will ever be able to come before the Lord with a contrite heart without someone working in Persona Christi to be a source of chasticement and forgiveness (or a means, rather).

God bless,
Mikey
[/quote]Mike,
Please consider what the requirements are for a sin to be Mortal. Use the Catechism of the Catholic Church as reference. Using that, please explain to me how you can identify and judge taht most Protestant (people) commit mortal sin.

[MichaelFilo]

Even if you should take knowledge into account, the Church has taught (although, I am not sure if officially, but certainly the Ordinary Magestratum (sp??) has) that the natural law is imprinted on our hearts, and that none of us are born without that knowledge. So, if you mean to say that knowledge is an issue, then all sins which can be understood to be sins from the Natural law are evidently then sins which anyone has knowledge of. Therefore, when certain denominations teach little children it is alright to masturbate, or teach adults that divorce is alright, then we know that regardless of Satan's lies, they know the truth (especially about the former, in which even their Bibles have a strong condemnation of).

What other issue could you possibly have with my understanding and what the Catechism says? If anything else, I'd like to be corrected. It seems you meant to say knowledge was the issue, but I believe that I did mention the Natural law before.

God bless,
Mikey

[Socrates]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='962495' date='Apr 27 2006, 01:32 AM']
The following is an excerpt from the 1949 letter of the Holy Office to Cardinal Cushing:
[/quote]
Good quote.

Seriously, the "Rad-Trads" on here spend far too much time worrying about who exactly is or is not in hell and who can or cannot be saved.
We should work to bring all into the fullness of Christ's truth, and for our own salvation, and leave the judgement of other's souls to God.



[quote name='MichaelFilo' post='960968' date='Apr 25 2006, 07:11 PM']
I grew up with the knowledge that anyone who is validly baptized (and at the time of my birth, non-Catholic baptisms were looked on in suspision, but that too has changed on the official level)[/quote]
Nothing has changed since your birth.
My parents were both received into the Church long before your birth, and had been baptized as protestants, but did not need to be "re-baptized."

As long as sprinkling on the head or submersion in water is used, and the Trinitarian formula ("I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"), the baptism is valid.

[MichaelFilo]

If this were about who is on hell, and this were my tool for individual judgement, I think you'd be justified in saying that. I am more interested, my good friend, in giving authentic teaching when my friends ask about this stuff, which just so happens to be the case with the spiritual descendants of the heretical Reformation.

God bless,
Mikey

[jasJis]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' post='963167' date='Apr 27 2006, 02:48 PM']
Again, from what is gathered, invincibale ignorance does not save. However, God will not let those who are invincibaly ignorant to perish; therefore the understanding that he will lead them to the Faith if by allowing them to come upon the Church or by sending an angel makes sense. Invincibale ignorance, however, will not save someone who commits mortal sin, or so it seems (that is to not follow natural law written in all men's hearts).

Therefore, it makes sense, since most Protestants (people) commit mortal sin, then what we must conclude is many will not be saved because of an explicit severing from the Church by that choice of action. The only way to reenter the Church, Catholic or otherwise, is by the Sacrament of Confession, which, since Protestants have no valid priests, nor do they submit to the Church, will not receive. It seems therefore that they are saved in their baptism (the Vatican II article on Ecumensism(sp?) seems to agree with this notion, thanks goes to Adam for making my curiosity grow enough to read it), but just like Catholics, by mortal sin do they severe themselves from the Church, but unlike Catholics, they have no way of reentering. While we know that God may forgive sins outside of the Sacrament if an honest and fully contrite heart is offered up, we also know that this means is not the regular means of receiving forgiveness, and that it is sensible to assume that few men will ever be able to come before the Lord with a contrite heart without someone working in Persona Christi to be a source of chasticement and forgiveness (or a means, rather).

God bless,
Mikey
[/quote]Mike,
You didn't refer back to the Catechism, did you? Please do so in order that we can discuss this from a point of mutal understanding.

I'm also going to bring up a parable of Jesus' that is appropriate. You are familiar with the Landowner who hired laborers to work in the field. Some started at the beginning of the day, some much later. They all got paid the same. When those who worked more complained, the Landowner said it was up to Him to do what He wanted with His money and they all agreed to do what the did for the wages they were paid. God is the landowner, Salvific Grace is the wage, and we are the workers responding to His Grace. Let's discuss this more...