Saved but not part of the Church, fully?

[MichaelFilo]

I grew up with the knowledge that anyone who is validly baptized (and at the time of my birth, non-Catholic baptisms were looked on in suspision, but that too has changed on the official level). So, understandably, those who Protest the Catholic Church's teachings are validly baptized, and never actually commit formal heresy. So, now, in realization of this, they still may attain heaven since the grace of salvation does come through the Catholic Church exclusivly, and they are semi-united in a way never seen before by other men.

But now, I have to ask, if they are tied to the Church because of their baptism then it would seem that it would be sensible that the entire canon be applicable to them. It would also seem that it would be neccessary for them to go to confession if they are to commit a mortal sin. This of course is only because it seems to the Church that it is perfectly normal that they be removed from all the graces of the Catholic Church but a few, such as salvation; so I have to wonder, sinc ethey are members, then ought they not be held to the same rules that regulate Christian life?

And then, what of those who have made a life of bashing the Catholic Church, of calling her a whore, of calling the Pope Satan, and the likes. This is almost always a fundamentalist attitude; does someone who calls the body of Christ a whore, remain a part of that body? Would that not be formal defection from Christ's body, since at this point they have rejected anythin to do with the Catholic Church (and, understandably, that would mean saving grace)?

If then mortal sin or the blashpheming of the Church would seperate any Catholic from the saving Grace God has given us, and that if we are to believe those seperated brethren share too in the saving Grace, then are we to believe that they somehow have other means of bypassing these mortal sins and blasphemies and entering into the Heavenly abode?

To me it would seem that since so much can seperate one from the Church, and so few people in these days are above at least falling into one of the many mortal sins, it would lead to the conclusion that seperated brethren of ours are truely about as saved as the Catholic who is born Catholic and never attends service, if it is true. Now, the other options is that they are exempt from some things Catholic, but not from others. That is, they receive saving Grace, but they need not go to Mass, they need not confess their sins as the Bible commands, they need not even follow all the moral laws if their churches which teach heresy have taught them something immoral is moral (for this case, some churches allow fornication, others masturbation, and worst still, some homosexuality).

Does anyone see any possible glue that makes all this stick as one?

God bless,
Mikey

[Brother Adam]

Yes, I do see the glue because your logic is faulty from the very beginning, or you might have a case. Non-catholics are Christians by their baptism as the Church has stated, yet they are not bound under canon law because they are not Catholic. This is unlike other heresies in the past that did not even have a valid baptism and therefore were not in any sense of the word saved. For each individual non-Catholic it is a matter of how ignorant they are and how much they can know. If someone repeats a lie enough, such as your parents, your friends, your pastor, your youth group leader, your teachers, everyone you know, it is not hard to understand that you would believ the lie is truth. Some people cannot psychologically get over having been lied to their whole lives and even when presented with Catholic truths, still cannot see beyond the lies, despite their desire for truth. Anti-Catholic fundamentalism is extremely powerful. It took me 3 years here before I became Catholic, not out of any particularly strong hate for the Catholic Church, but because I had been taught another anti-Catholic Christian worldview was correct and had embraced it in the absence of Catholic truth, which it turns out is what I was truly seeking.

Because many people ignorant that confession is a valid and necessary part of the sacramental life, and until they know something they are doing is a grave sin (until it meets all 3 criteria) how could they fully be held responsible to it as a mortal sin? I agree with your quote of St. Jerome, but none the less if the ignorance is at the time invincible, they are not cuplable.

[Theoketos]

[quote]ignorance is at the time invincible, they are not [b][fully][/b] cuplable.[/quote]

[brendan1104]

Questions and Answers
on Salvation

by Father Michael Muller, C.SS.R.



Editor’s Note: Father Michael Muller was one of the most widely read theologians of the 19th Century. He ranks as one of the greatest defenders of the dogma “Outside the Church there is no salvation” in modern times. Father Muller always submitted his works to two Redemptorist theologians and to his religious superiors before publication, thus we are sure of the doctrinal soundness of his teachings. This article, first published in 1875, is one of the finest treatments of the doctrinal truth that Our Lord founded one true Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation. Father Muller’s firm writings are desperately needed in our time when this doctrine is denied by those who are the most influential members of our Holy Church. We publish Father Muller’s excellent little Catechism as an antidote to the prevalent religious indifferentism — an indifferentism that is the direct result of what Blessed Pius IX denounced as “Liberal Catholicism”.



1. Do all admit that the Catholic Church is the first and the oldest Church, and, consequently the Church established by Jesus Christ?

That the Catholic Church is the first and oldest and consequently the Church established by Jesus Christ, is and must be admitted by all, because it is a fact clearly proven by Scripture and by history.

2. Who bear witness to this fact?

The Jews and the Gentiles bear witness to it, and even Protestants themselves acknowledge it, because, if asked why they call themselves Protestants, they answer: “Because we protest against the Catholic Church.”

3. What follows from this answer?

That the Catholic Church is older than Protestantism; otherwise they could not have protested against her.

4. If we go still further back and ask the Greek Church how they came into existence, what will be their answer?

The Greek Church must answer: “We began by separating from the Catholic Church in the 9th Century.”

5. What follows from this?

That the Catholic Church existed for eight hundred years before the Greek Church began, and consequently, it is older than the Greek Church.

6. If we thus go back to the very days of the Apostles, what do we find everywhere in regard to the manner in which religious sects arose?

If we go back to the days of the Apostles, we find that every sect separated from the Catholic Church, and therefore we see Calvinists, Kilhamites, Quakers, Shakers, Panters, Seekers, Jumpers, Reformed Methodists, German Methodists, Wesleyan Methodists, Baptists, Particular Baptists, Hardshell Baptists, Softshell Baptists, Forty- Gallon Baptists, Sixty- Gallon Baptists, Mennonites, Millerites, Universalists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Mormons, Christian Perfectionists, etc., etc., etc.

7. Is it not all the same to God whatever religion a person professes?

If it were all the same to God whatever religion a person professes, God would not have forbidden, in the First Commandment, to worship Him in any other than in the true religion. Nor would Christ have solemnly declared: “He who will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican.” (Matt. 18:17)


Ex Cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels,’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." - Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Feb. 4, 1442.


8. Who, then, will be saved?

Christ has solemnly declared that only those will be saved who have done God’s will on earth as explained, not by private interpretation, but by the infallible teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. “Not everyone,” says Christ, “who saith to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of Heaven; but he that doth the will of My Father Who is in Heaven, he shall enter the kingdom of Heaven.” (Matt. 7:21) The will of the heavenly Father is that all men hear and believe His Son, Jesus Christ. “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him.” (Luke 9:35)

Now Jesus Christ said to His Apostles and to all their lawful successors: “He that heareth you heareth Me, and he that despiseth you despiseth Me, and he that despiseth Me despiseth Him, the heavenly Father, that sent Me.” Hence all those who do not listen to Jesus Christ speaking to them through Saint Peter and the Apostles in their lawful successors, despise God the Father. They do not do His will, and therefore Heaven will never be theirs.

9. Must, then, all who wish to be saved, die united to the Catholic Church?

All those who wish to be saved, must die united to the Catholic Church. For out of her there is no salvation, because only she teaches what Jesus Christ requires of everyone to be saved, and because only to her did Christ leave the means to obtain all the graces necessary for salvation. Hence Jesus said to His Apostles and to all their lawful successors: “Go and teach all nations: teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. He that believeth not all these things shall be condemned.”

Our Divine Savior says: “No one can come to the Father, except through Me.” If we then wish to enter Heaven, we must be united to Christ — to His [Mystical] Body, which is the Church, as Saint Paul says. Therefore, outside the Church there is no salvation.

Again, Jesus Christ says: “Whoever will not hear the Church, look upon him as a heathen and a publican,” a great sinner. Therefore outside the Church there is no salvation.

Holy Scripture says: “The Lord added daily to the Church such as should be saved.” (Acts 2:47) Therefore the Apostles believed and the Holy Scriptures teach that there is no salvation out of the Church.

10. What did Saint Augustine and the other bishops of Africa, at the Council of Zirta, in 412, say about the salvation of those who die outside the Roman Catholic Church?

“Whosoever,” they said, “is separated from the Catholic Church, however commendable in his own opinion his life may be, he shall for the very reason that he is separated from the union of Christ not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

11. What does Saint Cyprian say about the salvation of those who die outside of the Roman Catholic Church?

Saint Cyprian says: “He who has not the Church for his mother cannot have God for his Father.” And with him the Fathers of the Church in general say that, “as all those who were not in the ark of Noah perished in the waters of the deluge, so shall perish all who are out of the true Church.”

12. Who are out of the pale of the Roman Catholic Church?

Out of the pale of the Roman Catholic Church are all unbaptized and all excommunicated persons, all apostates, unbelievers, and heretics.

Infidels and Apostates

13. How do we know that unbaptized persons are not saved?

That unbaptized persons are not saved, we know from Christ, Who said: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5.) For God cannot unite Himself to such souls in Heaven on account of Original Sin, with which they are defiled.

14. How do we know that persons justly excommunicated, who are unwilling to do what is required of them before they are absolved, are not saved?

Persons justly excommunicated, who are not willing to do what is required of them before they are absolved, are not saved, because the sin of great scandal, for which they were as dead members expelled from the communion of the Church, excludes them from the kingdom of Heaven.

15. Which Catholics are excommunicated?

All those Catholics are excommunicated, who are members of secret societies, which have been excommunicated [condemned] by the Church, such as Freemasonry, and other societies affiliated with it under various names.

16. Why have several Popes solemnly excommunicated all Freemasonry?

All Freemasons have been solemnly excommunicated by several Popes on account of the main object and spirit of Freemasonry, to establish heathenism or the Church of Satan all over the world:

a) By upsetting governments to obtain for themselves the power of governing and making impious laws for their subjects;
b) By trying to overthrow the Catholic Church, which teaches and maintains the rights and laws of God and civil society;
c) By spreading immoral and impious principles through the infidel press and other satanic means;
d) By establishing public schools for the infidel education of youth.

17. Is this main object and spirit known to all Freemasons?

This satanic object and spirit is known only to the members of the highest grades of Freemasonry. But it is sufficiently known to all from the works and speeches of Freemasons, and therefore every member, even of the lowest grade, is guilty of the foul deeds of this satanic society.

18. How do we know that apostates are not saved?

Apostates from the Catholic Faith are not saved, because to fall away from the Faith is a great sin, which makes one lose the kingdom of Heaven.1

19. How many kinds of infidels or unbelievers are there?

There are three kinds of infidels or unbelievers: (a) Those who are guilty of the sin of infidelity; (b) those who are not guilty of the sin of infidelity, but commit other great sins; and © those who are not guilty of the sin of infidelity, and live up to the dictates of their conscience.

20. What kind of infidels are guilty of the sin of infidelity?

All those unbaptized persons are guilty, who do not embrace the true religion, although the truths thereof have been sufficiently made known to them — like many of the Jews of whom our Lord said that they had no excuse for their sins, because He had spoken to them.

All those unbaptized persons are guilty, who have received sufficient light to know the truth, or at least to understand the danger of their position, and the obligation of making diligent inquiries to ascertain and embrace the truth, but neglect to do so.

And all those are guilty of the sin of infidelity, who willfully deny the truth and obstinately resist it.


"We must mention and condemn again that most pernicious error which has been imbibed by certain Catholics who are of the opinion that those people who live in error and have not the true faith and are separated from Catholic unity, may obtain life everlasting. Now this opinion is most contrary to the Catholic faith, as is evident from the plain words of Our Lord, (Matt 18:17; Mark 16:16; Luke 10:16; John 3:18) as also from the words of Saint Paul (2 Tit. 52:11) and of Saint Peter (2 Peter 2:1) To entertain opinions contrary to this Catholic faith is to be an impious wretch." - Blessed Pope Pius IX

21. Why is it that positive infidels are not saved?

Positive infidels are not saved because, “positive infidelity, being willful obstinacy, palpable contradiction, and public contempt of divine revelation and of the precepts of the Gospel, is one of the most grievous sins in the sight of God and of His Holy Church,” says Saint Thomas Aquinas.

22. Explain the grievousness of the sin of infidelity.

Mortal sin is a deviation from virtue and divine law. The most heinous sin, therefore, is that which separates man from God more than any other. Now, no sin causes a greater separation from God than that of positive infidelity. When the intellect is in error and abandons the knowledge of God, the will follows it and increases in malice in proportion as the intellect turns away from the path of truth, justice, and charity. Each step that such a man takes in the darkness of infidelity, increases the distance that separates him from God. A return from that dangerous course is very difficult, for when the intellect is in error and the will is filled with malice and depravity, all the bonds capable of uniting man to God are torn asunder.

If such men die in this disposition of mind they are infallibly lost, says Saint Thomas. “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” (Heb. 11:6)

23. Which kind of infidels are not guilty of the sin of infidelity, but commit other grievous sins?

Those who are not guilty of the sin of infidelity, but commit other grievous sins, are all those unbaptized persons who never had an opportunity of knowing the true religion, or of becoming aware of the obligation of seeking and embracing it, but who do not live up to the dictates of their conscience.

24. Will this class of infidels be lost?

This class of infidels will be lost, not on account of their infidelity, which was no sin for them, but on account of other grievous sins which they committed against their conscience. “For whosoever have sinned without the law,” says Saint Paul, “shall perish without the law.” (Romans 2:12)

25. Will those infidels be lost, who are not guilty of the sin of infidelity and live up to their conscience?

Of those infidels who are not guilty of the sin of infidelity and are faithful in obeying the voice of their conscience, Saint Thomas Aquinas says: “If anyone was brought up in the wilderness or among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of nature to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe that God, by an inward inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as He sent Peter to Cornelius.”

Heresy Explained

26. What is the meaning of the word “heretic”?

The word “heretic” is derived from the Greek, and means “a chooser.”

27. What is a heretic?

A heretic is any baptized person, professing Christianity, and choosing for himself what to believe and what not to believe as he pleases, in obstinate opposition to any particular truth which he knows is taught by the Catholic Church as a truth revealed by God.

28. How many things, then, are required to make a person guilty of the sin of heresy?

To make a person guilty of the sin of heresy, three things are required:

a) He must be baptized and profess Christianity. This distinguishes him from a Jew and idolater;
b) He must refuse to believe a truth revealed by God, and taught by the Church as so revealed;
c) He must obstinately adhere to error, preferring his own private judgment in matters of faith and morals to the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church.

29. How many kinds of heretics (Protestants) are there?

There are three kinds of heretics:

a) Those who are guilty of the sin of heresy;
b) Those who are not guilty of the sin of heresy, but commit other grievous sins;
c) Those who are not guilty of the sin of heresy and live up to the dictates of their conscience.

30. Who are guilty of the sin of heresy?

Of the sin of heresy are guilty:

a) All those baptized persons, who profess Christianity and obstinately reject a truth revealed by God and taught by the Church as so revealed;
b) Those who embrace an opinion contrary to Faith, maintain it obstinately, and refuse to submit to the authority of the Catholic Church;
c) Those who willfully doubt the truth of an article of Faith, for by such willful doubt they actually question God’s knowledge and truth, and to do this is to be guilty of heresy;
d) Those who know the Catholic Church to be the only true Church, but do not embrace her faith;
e) Those who could know the Church, if they would candidly search, but who, through indifference and other culpable motives, neglect to do so;
f) Those who, like the Anglicans, think that they approach very near the Catholic Church, because their prayers and ceremonies are like many prayers and ceremonies of the Catholic Church, and because their Creed is the Apostles’ Creed. These are heretics in principle, for, “The real character of rank heresy,” says St. Thomas Aquinas, “consists in want of submission to the divine teaching authority in the Head of the Church.”

31. Why are true heretics lost?

True heretics are lost because by rejecting the divine teacher — the Catholic Church — they reject all divine teaching, to do which is one of the greatest sins. Hence Pope Pius IX spoke of Protestantism in all its forms as “the great revolt against God,” it being an attempt to substitute a human for a divine authority, and a declaration of the creature’s independence from the Creator. For this reason Holy Scripture condemns heresy in the strongest terms. “A man,” says St. Paul, “that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid; knowing that he who is such a one is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.” (Tit. 3:10-11) And again he says: “Though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach a Gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema,” that is, “accursed”. (Gal. 1:8)

Heretics are lost because they have no divine Faith. “To reject but one article of Faith taught by the Church,” says St. Thomas Aquinas, “is enough to destroy Faith, as one mortal sin is enough to destroy Charity. For the virtue of Faith does not consist merely in adhering to the Holy Scriptures, and in revering them as the Word of God; it consists principally in submitting our intellect and will to the divine authority of the true Church charged by Jesus Christ to expound them. “I would not believe the Holy Scriptures,” says St. Augustine, “were it not for the divine authority of the Church.” He, therefore, who despises and rejects this authority, cannot have true Faith. If he admits some supernatural truths, they are but simple opinions, as he makes those truths depend on his private judgment.

And as divine Faith is the beginning of salvation, the foundation and source of justification, and is found only in the true Church, it is clear that there is no salvation for one as long as he is a heretic.

Heresy Denies All Faith

32. Have heretics faith in Jesus Christ?

Saint Thomas Aquinas says: “It is absurd for a heretic to say that he believes in Jesus Christ. To believe in a person is to give our full consent to His word and to all He teaches. True Faith, therefore, is absolute belief in Jesus Christ and in all He taught. Hence, he who does not adhere to all that Jesus Christ has prescribed for our salvation, has no more the doctrine of Jesus Christ and of His Church, than the pagans, Jews, and Turks have.” “He is,” says Jesus Christ, “but a heathen and a publican”; and therefore he will be condemned to hell.

33. Show how Protestants have no absolute faith in Christ.

Jesus Christ says: “Hear the Church.” “No,” say Luther and all Protestants, “do not hear the Church; protest against her with all your might.”

Jesus Christ says: “If anyone will not hear the Church, look upon him as a heathen and a publican.” “No,” says Protestantism, “if anyone does not hear the Church, look upon him as an apostle, an ambassador of God.”

Jesus Christ says: “The gates of hell shall not prevail against My Church.” “No,” says Protestantism. “ ’Tis false, the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church for a thousand years and more.”

Jesus Christ has declared Saint Peter and every successor to Saint Peter — the Pope — to be His Vicar on earth. “No,” says Protestantism, “the Pope is anti- Christ”.

Jesus Christ says: “My yoke is sweet, and My burden light.” (Matt. 11:30) “No,” said Luther and Calvin, “it is impossible to keep the Commandments.”

Jesus Christ says: “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17) “No,” said Luther and Calvin, “faith alone, without good works, is sufficient to enter into life everlasting.”

Jesus Christ says: “Unless you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.” (cf. Luke 13:3) “No,” said Luther and Calvin, “fasting and other works of penance are not necessary in satisfaction for sin.”

Jesus Christ says: “This is My Body.” “No,” said Calvin, “this is only the figure of Christ’s Body; it will become His Body as soon as you receive It.”

Jesus Christ says: “I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, and shall marry another, committeth adultery; and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.” (Matt. 19:9) “No,” say Luther and all Protestants, to a married man, “you may put away your wife, get a divorce, and marry another.”

Jesus Christ says to every man: “Thou shalt not steal.” “No,” said Luther to secular princes, “I give you the right to appropriate to yourselves the property of the Roman Catholic Church.”

34. Do heretics speak in this manner also of the Holy Ghost and the Apostles?

They do. The Holy Ghost says in Holy Scripture: “Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love or hatred.” (Eccles. 9:1) “Who can say: My heart is clean, I am pure from sin?” (Prov. 20:9) And, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philip. 2:12) “No,” said Luther and Calvin, “but whosoever believes in Jesus Christ, is in the state of grace.”

Saint Paul says: “If I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.” (1 Cor. 13:2) “No,” said Luther and Calvin, “faith alone is sufficient to save us.”

Saint Peter says that in the Epistles of Saint Paul there are many things “hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as also the other Scriptures, to their own perdition.” (2 Pet. 3:16) “No,” said Luther and Calvin, “the Scriptures are very plain, and easy to be understood.”

Saint James says: “Is anyone sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord.” (Chapter 5, verse 14) “No,” said Luther and Calvin, “that is a vain and useless ceremony.”

35. Now, do you think God the Father will admit into Heaven those who thus contradict His Son Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, and the Apostles?

No, He will let them have their portion with Lucifer in hell, who first rebelled against Christ, and who is the father of liars.

36. Can a Christian be saved, who has left the true Church of Christ, the Holy Catholic Church?

No, because the Church of Christ is the kingdom of God on earth, and he who leaves that kingdom, shuts himself out from the kingdom of Christ in Heaven.

37. Have Protestants left the true Church of Christ?

Protestants left the true Church of Christ in their founders, who left the Catholic Church either through pride or through the passion of lust and covetousness.

38. What will be the punishment of those who willfully rebel against the Holy Catholic Church?

Those who willfully rebel against the Holy Catholic Church, will, like Lucifer and the other rebellious angels, be cast into the everlasting flames of hell. “He who will not hear the Church,” says Christ, “let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.” (Matt. 18:17)

39. But if a Protestant should say: “I have nothing to do with Luther or Calvin or Henry VIII or John Knox, I go by the Bible,” what would you answer him?

In that case, you adopt, and go by, the principles and spirit of the authors of heresies, and you change the written Word of God into the word of man, because you interpret Holy Scripture in your own private manner, giving it that meaning which you choose to give it, and thus, instead of believing the Word of God, you believe rather your own private interpretation of it, which is but the word of man. Hence, Saint Augustine says: “You who believe what you please, and reject what you please, believe yourselves or your own fancy rather than the Gospel.”

Inculpable Ignorance

40. Which Protestants are not guilty of the sin of heresy, but commit other great sins?

Those who are Protestants without their fault and who never had an opportunity of knowing better, are not guilty of the sin of heresy; but if they do not live up to the dictates of their conscience, they will be lost, not on account of their heresy, which for them was no sin, but on account of other grievous sins which they committed.

41. Will those heretics be saved, who are not guilty of the sin of heresy, and are faithful in living up to the dictates of their conscience?

Inculpable ignorance of the true religion excuses a heathen from the sin of infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy. But such ignorance has never been the means of salvation. From the fact that a person who lives up to the dictates of his conscience, and who cannot sin against the true religion on account of being ignorant of it, many have drawn the false conclusion that such a person is saved, or, in other words, is in the state of sanctifying grace, thus making ignorance a means of salvation or justification.

If we sincerely wish not to make great mistakes in explaining the great revealed truth, “Out of the Church there is no salvation,” we must remember:

a) That there are four great truths2 of salvation, which everyone must know and believe in order to be saved;

b) That no one can go to Heaven unless he is in the state of sanctifying grace;

c) That, in order to receive sanctifying grace, the soul must be prepared for it by divine Faith, Hope, Charity, true sorrow for sin with the firm purpose of doing all that God requires the soul to believe and to do, in order to be saved;

d) That this preparation of the soul cannot be brought by inculpable ignorance. And if such ignorance cannot even dispose the soul for receiving the grace of justification, it can much less give this grace to the soul. Inculpable ignorance has never been a means of grace or salvation, not even for the inculpably ignorant people that live up to their conscience. But of this class of ignorant persons we say, with Saint Thomas Aquinas, that God in His mercy will lead these souls to the knowledge of the necessary truths of salvation, even send them an angel, if necessary, to instruct them, rather than let them perish without their fault. If they accept this grace, they will be saved as Catholics.

Other Questions

42. But is it not a very uncharitable doctrine to say that no one can be saved out of the Church?

On the contrary, it is a very great act of charity to assert most emphatically, that out of the Catholic Church there is no salvation possible; for Jesus Christ and His Apostles have taught this doctrine in very plain language. He who sincerely seeks the truth is glad to hear it, and embrace it, in order to be saved.

43. But is it not said in Holy Scripture: “He that feareth God, and worketh justice, is acceptable to Him?”

This is true. But we must remember that he who fears God, will also believe all the truths that God has revealed, as Cornelius did. (Acts, Chapter 10) He believes Jesus Christ when He speaks to us through the pastors of His Church. But he who does not believe all the truths that God has revealed, but instead believes and rejects whatever he chooses, does not fear God, and cannot work justice. “He that believeth not the Son of God” — Jesus Christ — “maketh Him a liar,” says Saint John (1 John 5:10); and will, on this account, be condemned to hell.

44. But are there not many who would lose the affections of their friends, their comfortable homes, their temporal goods, and prospects in business, were they to become Catholics? Would not Jesus Christ excuse them, under such circumstances, from becoming Catholics?

As to the affection of friends, Jesus Christ has solemnly declared: “He who loveth father or mother more than Me, is not worthy of Me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me, is not worthy of Me.” (Matt. 10:37) And as to the loss of temporal gain He has answered: “What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul?” (Mark 8:36)

45. But would it not be enough for such a one to be a Catholic in heart only, without professing his religion publicly?

No, for Jesus Christ has solemnly declared that, “He who shall be ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man shall be ashamed when He shall come in His majesty, and that of His Father, and of the holy angels.” (Luke 9:26)

46. But might not such a one safely put off being received into the Church till the hour of death?

To put off being received into the Church till the hour of death is to abuse the mercy of God, and to expose oneself to the danger of losing the light and grace of Faith, and die a reprobate.

47. What else keeps many from becoming Catholics?

Many know very well that, if they become Catholics, they must lead honest and sober lives, be pure, and check their sinful passions, and this they are unwilling to do. “Men love darkness rather than light,” says Jesus Christ, “because their deeds are evil.” There are none so deaf as those that will not hear.

48. What follows from the fact that salvation can be found only in the Roman Catholic Church?

It follows that it is very impious for anyone to think and to say that it matters little what a man believes provided he be an honest man.

49. What answer can you give to a man who speaks thus?

A man who says, “it matters little what a man believes, provided he be an honest man,” I would ask whether or not he believed that his honesty and justice were so great as that of the Scribes and Pharisees in the Gospel. They were constant in prayer; they paid tithes according to the law, gave great alms, fasted twice a week, and compassed the sea and land to make a convert and bring him to the knowledge of the true God.

50. What did Jesus Christ say of this justice of the Pharisees?

He says: “Unless your justice shall exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.” (Matt. 5:20)

51. Was, then, the righteousness of the Pharisees very defective in the sight of God?

The righteousness of the Pharisees was most undoubtedly very defective. Their righteousness was all outward show and ostentation. They did good only to be praised and admired by men; but within their souls they were full of impurity and malice. They were lewd hypocrites, who concealed great vices under the beautiful appearance of love for God, charity to the poor, and severity to themselves. Their devotion consisted in exterior acts, and they despised all who did not live as they did. They were strict in the religious observances of human traditions, but scrupled not to violate the Commandments of God.

52. What are we then to think of those who say: “It matters little what a man believes, provided he be honest?”

Of those who say this, we think that their exterior honesty, like that of the Pharisees, may be sufficient to keep them out of prison, but not out of hell.

Pius IX Answers

53. But did not Pope Pius IX say that all men, however alienated from Catholic union they remain, are alike in the way of salvation and may obtain life everlasting?

To this calumnious report of certain newspapers, Pope Pius IX replied: “in our times, many of the enemies of the Catholic Faith direct their efforts towards placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or confounding it therewith; and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions. But quite recently — we shudder to say — certain men have not hesitated to slander us by saying that we share in their folly, favor that most wicked system, and think so benevolently of every class of mankind as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life. We are at a loss, from horror, to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.

“We love, indeed, all mankind with the inmost affection of our heart, yet not otherwise than in the love of God and our Lord Jesus Christ, Who came to seek and to save that which had perished, Who died for all, Who wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; Who, therefore, sent His disciples into the whole world to preach the Gospel to every creature, proclaiming that those who should believe and be baptized should be saved, but that those who should not believe should be condemned.

“Let those, therefore, who wish to be saved, come to the pillar and the ground of Faith, which is the Church; let them come to the true Church of Christ, which, in her bishops and in the Roman Pontiff, the chief head of all, has the succession of apostolical authority which has never been interrupted, which has never counted anything of greater importance than to preach, and by all means to keep and defend the doctrine proclaimed by the Apostles at Christ’s command.” (Allocution to the Cardinals held on December 17, 1847)

54. What conclusion, therefore, should every non-Catholic draw from this conviction?

From this conviction, every non-Catholic should draw the practical conclusion to become a Catholic. For when there is a question about eternal salvation and eternal damnation, a sensible man will take the surest way to Heaven.

Note:

1) Apostasy, or the falling away from the true Faith, is a kind of infidelity. As the virtue of true faith unites us with God, so the sin of apostasy separates us from Him. As the real loss of faith is a total separation from God and His Holy Church, it is called apostasy of perfidy. Whoever is guilty of this kind of apostasy, is deprived of grace and of all other means of salvation, for, “Faith is the life of the soul: the just man lives by faith.” (Rom. 1: 17) “When the soul, the life of the body,” says Saint Thomas Aquinas, “has left the body, all its natural powers and physical organization begin to be dissolved. In like manner, when true faith, the life of the soul is totally destroyed, a mortal disorder, a spiritual contagion, pervades all the members and faculties of the body, which are the instruments of the soul.” Hence it is, that the apostate uses every faculty of his soul and body to pervert others, by inducing them to renounce the Faith which he himself has renounced to his own perdition. “It had been better for them (heretics and apostates) not to have known the way of justice than, after having known it, to turn away from it.” (2 Peter 2: 21) “Woe to you ungodly men,” says Holy Writ, “woe to you who have forsaken the law of the Most High Lord! If you be born, you shall be born in rnalediction, and if you die, in malediction shall be your position. The ungodly shall pass from malediction to destruction; the name of the ungodly shall be blotted out.” (Eccles. 61:11-14 )

2) Editor’s Note: Father Muller is most likely referring to these four truths: 1) that God is, 2) that He is Remunerator (Rewarder), 3) the Blessed Trinity, 4) the Incarnation.

Invincible or Inculpable Ignorance Neither Saves nor Damns a Person

by Father Michael Müller, C.Ss.R.

Editor's Note: Because Catholic Family News often publishes articles that emphasize the infallible Catholic doctrine of "outside the Church there is no salvation," we have sometimes been accused of implicitly denying Venerable Pope Pius IX's teaching on invincible ignorance.1 In answer, we do not deny Pope Pius IX's teaching on invincible ignorance. Yet, because there seems to be widespread confusion on this point, we are presenting the writings on the subject by the erudite Redemptorist Father Michael Müller, who lived in the late 19th Century. Father Müller, in perfect continuity with the most orthodox Catholic writers of the period (especially, the great Bishop George Hay2) clarifies this teaching by explaining that invincible ignorance neither saves nor condemns.

The Background: Father Michael Müller is well known for his magnificent books The Blessed Sacrament, Prayer: the Key to Salvation, The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and The Sinner's Return to God. He also authored many works that are now out of print. In 1875, he wrote a small booklet entitled A Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine3 in which he emphasized the doctrine that "outside the Church there is no salvation." His book was attacked by liberal-leaning American clergymen at the time. The main attack came from a "prominent Catholic priest" whom Father Müller only referred to as "Sir Oracle" (S.O.). Father Müller responded to these assaults with his superb 292 page book, The Catholic Dogma, which bears the Permisu Superiorum from his Redemptorist Order. What follows is taken verbatum from pages 211 to 218 of that book. The reader will immediately notice that in clarifying the teaching on invincible ignorance, Father Müller is also combatting the same errors so prominent in our own day.


"But, suppose", some one will say, "a person, in his inculpable ignorance, believes that he is on the right road to Heaven, though he is not a Catholic; he tries his best to live up to the dictates of his conscience. Now, should he die in that state of belief, he would, it seems, be condemned without his fault. We can understand that God is not bound to give Heaven to anybody, but, as He is just, He certainly cannot condemn anybody without his fault."

Whatever question may be made still in regard to the great truth, in question is sufficiently answered in the explanation already given of this great truth4. For the sake of greater clearness, however, we will answer a few more questions. In the answers to these questions we shall be obliged to repeat what has already been said.

Now, as to the question just proposed, we answer with St. Thomas and St. Augustine: "There are many things which a man is obliged to do, but which he cannot do without the help of divine grace: as, for instance, to love God and his neighbor, and to believe the articles of faith; but he can do all this with the help of grace; and 'to whomsoever God gives His grace He gives it out of Divine Mercy: and to whomsoever He does not give it, He refuses it out of divine justice, in punishment of sin committed, or at least in punishment of original sin," as St. Augustine says. (Lib. de correptione et gratia, c. 5 et 6; Sum. 22. q. ii art. v.) "And the ignorance of these things of salvation, the knowledge of which men did not care to have, is, without doubt, a sin for them; but for those who were not able to acquire such knowledge, the want of it is a punishment for their sins", says St. Augustine; hence both are justly condemned, and neither the one nor the other has a just excuse for being lost." (Epist. ad Sixtum, Edit. Maur. 194, cap. vi., n. 27.)

Moreover, a person who wants to go east, but, by an innocent mistake, gets on a train going west, will, as soon as he finds out his mistake, get off at the next station, and take a train that goes east. In like manner, a person who walked on a road that he, in his inculpable ignorance, believed was the true road to Heaven, must leave that road, as soon as he finds out his mistake, and inquire for the true road to Heaven. God, in His infinite mercy, will not fail to make him find out, in due time, the true road to Heaven, if he corresponds to His grace. Hence we asked the following question in our Familiar Explanation:

"What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity to know better?"

To this question we give the following answer:

"Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic Faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance." (St. Thomas Aquinas)
Liberal Objections

S. O. remarks about this answer, "that the author is not theologically correct, for no one will ever be punished through, by, or because of inculpable ignorance." In these words, S. O. impudently imputes to us what we never have asserted, namely, that a man will be damned on account of his inculpable ignorance. From the fact that a person tries to live up to the dictates of his conscience, and cannot sin against the true religion on account of being invincibly ignorant of it, many have drawn the false conclusion that such a person is saved, or, in other words, is in the state of sanctifying grace, making thus invincible ignorance a means of salvation. This conclusion is contra "latius hos quam permissæ". To give an example. Rev. Nicholas Russo, S. J., professor of philosophy in Boston College, says in his book, The True Religion and its Dogmas:
"This good faith being supposed, we say that such a Christian (he means a baptized Protestant) is in a way a member of the Catholic Church. Ignorance alone is the cause of his not acknowledging the authority of his true mother. The Catholic Church does not look upon him as wholly a stranger; she calls him her child; she presses him to her maternal heart; through other hands she prepares him to shine in the kingdom of Heaven. Yes, the profession of a creed different from the true one will not, of itself, bar the gates of Heaven before this Christian; invincible ignorance will, before the tribunal of the just God, ensure the pardon of his errors against faith; and, if nothing else be wanting, Heaven will be his home for eternity."

We have already sufficiently refuted these false assertions, and we have quoted them, not for the purpose of refuting them, but for the purpose of denying emphatically what follows after these false assertions, namely:

"This is the doctrine held by almost all theologians, and has received the sanction of our late Pope Pius IX. In his allocution of December 9, 1854, we read the following words: 'It is indeed of faith that no one can be saved outside the Apostolic Roman Church; that this Church is the one ark of salvation; that he who has not entered it will perish in the deluge. But, on the other hand, it is equally certain that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, he would not be held guilty in the sight of God for not professing it.' "

The True Teaching of Pius IX

Now, in which of these words of Pope Pius IX is any of the above false assertions of the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., sanctioned? In which words does Pius IX say that a Protestant in good faith is in a way a member of the Catholic Church? Does not Pius IX teach quite the contrary in the following words:5

"Now, whoever will carefully examine and reflect upon the condition of the various religious societies, divided among themselves, and separated from the Catholic Church -- which, from the days of Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles, has ever exercised, by its lawful pastors, and still does exercise, the divine power committed to it by this same Lord -- will easily satisfy himself that none of these societies, singly nor all together, are in any way or form that one Catholic Church which our Lord founded and built, and which He chose should be; and that he cannot by any means say that these societies are members or parts of that Church, since they are visibly separate from Catholic unity ...

"Let all those, then, who do not profess the unity and truth of the Catholic Church, avail themselves of the opportunity of this (Vatican) Council, in which the Catholic Church, to which their forefathers belonged, affords a new proof of her close unity and her invincible vitality, and let them satisfy the longings of their hearts, and liberate themselves from that state in which they cannot have any assurance of their own salvation. Let them unceasingly offer fervent prayers to the God of Mercy, that He will throw down the wall of separation, that He will scatter the darkness of error, and that He will lead them back to the Holy Mother Church, in whose bosom their fathers found the salutary pastures of life, in whom alone the whole doctrine of Jesus Christ is preserved and handed down, and the mysteries of heavenly grace dispensed."

Now does not Pius IX say in these words, very plainly and distinctly, that the "members of all other religious societies are visibly separated from Catholic unity; that in this state of separation they cannot have salvation; that, by fervent prayer, they should beseech God to throw down the wall of separation, to scatter the darkness of error, and lead them to the Mother Church, in which alone salvation is found."

And in his Allocution to the Cardinals, held Dec. 17, 1847, Pius IX says: "Let those, therefore, who wish to be saved, come to the pillar and the ground of faith, which is the Church; let them come to the true Church of Christ, which, in her bishops, and in the Roman Pontiff, the Chief Head of all, has the succession of apostolical Authority, which has never been interrupted, which has never counted anything of greater importance than to preach, and by all means to keep and defend the doctrine proclaimed by the Apostles at Christ's command ... We shall never at any time abstain from any cares or labors that, by the grace of Christ Himself, we may bring those who are ignorant, and who are going astray, to THlS ONLY ROAD OF TRUTH and SALVATION.'' Now does not Pius IX teach most clearly in these words that the ignorant cannot be saved by their ignorance, but that, in order to be saved they must come to the only road of truth and salvation, which is the Roman Catholic Church.

Again, does not Pius IX most emphatically declare, in the words quoted above by the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., that "It is indeed of faith, that NO ONE can be saved out of the Apostolic Roman Church?" How, then, we ask, can the Rev. N. Russo, S. J. say in truth, that a Protestant in good faith, such as he described, is in a way a member of the Catholic Church? That the Catholic Church does not look upon him as wholly a stranger? That she calls him her child, presses him to her maternal heart, prepares him, through other hands to shine in the kingdom of God? That the profession of a creed different from the true one will not, of itself, bar the gates of Heaven before this Christian, etc.? How can this professor of philosophy at the Boston College assert all this, whilst Pius IX teaches the very contrary? And mark especially the scandalous assertion of the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., namely: "This our opinion is the doctrine which has received the sanction of our late Pope Pius IX" To prove his scandalous assertion, he quotes the following words of Pius IX: "It is equally certain that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, he would not be held guilty in the sight of God for not professing it."

If, in these words, Pius IX says what no one calls in question, that invincible ignorance of the true religion excuses a Protestant from the sin of heresy, does Pius IX thereby teach that such invincible ignorance saves such a Protestant? Does he teach that invincible ignorance supplies all that is necessary for salvation -- all that you can have only in the true faith? How could the Professor of philosophy at the Jesuit College in Boston draw such a false and scandalous conclusion from premises in which it is not contained?

Pius IX has, on many occasions, condemned such liberal opinions. Read his Allocution to the Cardinals, held Dec. 17, 1847, in which he expresses his indignation against all those who had said that he had sanctioned such perverse opinions. "In our times", says he, "many of the enemies of the Catholic Faith direct their efforts towards placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or confounding it therewith; and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions. But quite recently -- we shudder to say it certain men have not hesitated to slander us by saying that we share in their folly, favor that most wicked system, and think so benevolently of every class of mankind as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life. We are at a loss, from horror, to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done to us."

Mark well, Pius IX uttered these solemn words against "certain men'', whom he calls the enemies of the Catholic Faith, -- he means liberal minded Catholics and priests, as is evident from other Allocutions, in which he says that he has condemned not less than forty times their perverse opinions about religion. Is it not, for instance, a perverse and monstrous opinion, when the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., says: "The spiritual element (of the Church) comprises all the graces and virtues that are the foundation of the spiritual life; it includes the gifts of the Holy Ghost; in other words, it is what theologians call the soul of the Church. (Now follows the monstrous opinion) This mysterious soul is not limited by the bounds of the exterior organization (of the Church); it can go far beyond; exist even in the midst of schism and heresy unconsciously professed, and bind to our Lord hearts that are connected by no exterior ties with the visible Body of the Church. This union with the soul of the Church is essential to salvation; so essential that without it none can be saved. But the necessity of belonging likewise to the Body of the Church, though a real one, may in certain cases offer no obstacle to salvation. This happens whenever invincible ignorance so shrouds a man's intellectual vision, that he ceases to be responsible before God for the light which he does not see?" The refutation of this monstrous opinion is sufficiently given in all we have said before. The very Allocution of Pius IX, from which the Rev. N. Russo quotes, is a direct condemnation of such monstrous opinions.6

Now these modern would-be theologians are not ashamed to assure us most solemnly that their opinions are the doctrine held by almost all theologians, and yet they cannot quote one proof from Holy Scripture, or from the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, to give the least support to their opinions.

The Rev. N. Russo and S. O. seem not to see the difference between saying: Inculpable ignorance will not save a man, and inculpable ignorance will not beaver dam a man. Each assertion is correct, and yet there is a great difference between the two. It will be an act of charity to enlighten them on the point in question.

Neither Saves nor Condemns
Inculpable or invincible ignorance has never been and will never be a means of salvation. To be saved, it is necessary to be justified, or to be in the state of sanctifying grace. In order to obtain sanctifying grace, it is necessary to have the proper dispositions for justification; that is, true divine faith in at least the necessary truths of salvation, confident hope in the divine Savior, sincere sorrow for sin, together with the firm purpose of doing all that God has commanded, etc. Now, these supernatural acts of faith, hope, charity, contrition, etc., which prepare the soul for receiving sanctifying grace, can never be supplied by invincible ignorance; and if invincible ignorance cannot supply the preparation for receiving sanctifying grace, much less can it bestow sanctifying grace itself. "Invincible ignorance", says St. Thomas Aquinas, "is a punishment for sin". (De Infid. q. x., art. 1.) It is, then, a curse, but not a blessing or a means of salvation.

But if we say that inculpable ignorance cannot save a man, we thereby do not say that invincible ignorance damns a man. Far from it. To say, invincible ignorance is no means of salvation, is one thing; and to say, invincible ignorance is the cause of damnation, is another. To maintain the latter would be wrong, for inculpable ignorance of the fundamental principles of faith excuses a heathen from the sin of infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy; because such invincible ignorance, being only a simple involuntary privation, is no sin.

Hence Pius IX said "that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, such invincible ignorance would not be sinful before God; that, if such a person should observe the precepts of the Natural Law and do the will of God to the best of his knowledge, God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten him so as to obtain eternal life; for, the Lord, who knows the heart and thoughts of man, will, in His infinite goodness, not suffer any one to be lost forever without his own fault."7

Sub-titles and Footnotes added by Catholic Family News


Footnotes:

1. Encyclicals of Pope Pius IX's: Singulari Quidem, Singulari Quadam, and Quanto Conficiamur Moerore

2. Bishop George Hay (1729-1811) from Scotland was one of the greatest Catholic teachers and apologists of the early 19th Century. His three famous works are The Sincere Christian, The Devout Christian and The Pious Christian (all out of print). His works have received high praise from many Catholic bishops of the 19th Century. Paul Cardinal Cullen said, "the learned Bishop's writings display a great power of reasoning, and great critical acumen, while they supply an inexhaustible mine of erudition and Scriptural knowledge".

3. The book received the approval of a number of learned priests and theologians at the time, and was printed with the Imprimatur of the Most Rev. J. Roosevelt Baily, Archbishop of Baltimore and the Very Reverend Joseph Helmpraecht, the Provincial of the Redemptorist in the U.S.

4. See The Catholic Dogma, pp. 136 to 211.

5. The author here notes "which Rev. N. Russo, S.J. quotes on pp. 163-166".

6. The author refers the reader to the preface of The Catholic Dogma in which Pope Pius IX is quoted at length on the teaching that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

7. The next chapter in Fr. Müller's book is entitled "How Almighty God Leads to Salvation Those Who Are Inculpably Ignorant of the Truths of Salvation." Fr. Müller explains that "Almighty God, who is just and condemns no one without his fault, puts, therefore, such souls as are in invincible ignorance of the truths of salvation, in the way of salvation, by either natural or supernatural means." (p. 218) He then gives instances in Church history where God has employed both natural and supernatural means to lead the invincibly ignorant into the Church. Photocopies of these pages (pp. 118-249) are available from Catholic Family News for $7.00US postpaid.

[Tarcisius]

There is NO salvation outside of the Church. The Blessed Mother told Jacinta that Francesco of Fatima would only make it to Heaven with many rosaries, this was a boy under the age of 10 who most likely never committed a mortal sin, spoke with Mary, and was by all acounts a perfect child, if his salvation was not sure how can you expect protestants to recieve the Beautific Vision.

[Brother Adam]

I spent about three hours this morning reading fisheaters forums since they decided to come 'save' us here at phatmass. I saw "Catholicism without God". As a former non-Catholic I would have gotten along just fine there and helped fuel their hatred of souls and the Church to continue to convert them towards Protestantism.

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='961489' date='Apr 26 2006, 12:05 PM']
There is NO salvation outside of the Church. The Blessed Mother told Jacinta that Francesco of Fatima would only make it to Heaven with many rosaries, this was a boy under the age of 10 who most likely never committed a mortal sin, spoke with Mary, and was by all acounts a perfect child, if his salvation was not sure how can you expect protestants to recieve the Beautific Vision.
[/quote]

Its interesting to study the mercy of the Church as it learns about it herself. I see the world view that folks such as yourself are stuck in, and wonder if you have ever actually studied Church history outside of the late 1500's. Perhaps we should fully reinstate the orders of both catechumentate and pentitent. Whence it usually took 3 years of public penance to be absolved, and you could only confess and enter reenter the Catholic faith once. There was no such thing as daily confessions in a confessional. Tridentine theology and practice is a result of the develpment of doctrine and theology in the Church in reaction to the Protestant reformation. We no longer live post-Tridentine anymore than we live post Nicea or Post Chalcadon. We are now Post Second Vatican Council. It is the year 2006. The Church has continued to grow. It did not stop growing. Ignoring and rejecting the ordinary magisterium of the Catholic Church today, is a rejection of that same Catholic Church. The orthodox refuse to accept the Catholic Church after the first 7 ecumenical councils. Ultra-tradtionalists refuse to accept the Church after the Council of Trent. It really is no different. While I am no judge, I don't see "Catholics" who reject the Catholic Church as it is today any different than the Orthodox or the Protestants.

[Tarcisius]

Adam BLAHHHHHHHHHH, your words have nothing to do with what i posted and because while you dont like the idea of it you know it is completly orthodox and true. Most likely I will not make it to Heaven, and neither will a vast majority of "Catholics".

[jasJis]

I wonder if Benedict is in trouble about Dominus Iesus?

[jasJis]

I wonder if Benedict is in trouble about Dominus Iesus?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='961592' date='Apr 26 2006, 01:08 PM']
Adam BLAHHHHHHHHHH, your words have nothing to do with what i posted and because while you dont like the idea of it you know it is completly orthodox and true. Most likely I will not make it to Heaven, and neither will a vast majority of "Catholics".
[/quote]

I'm sorry that you believe your going to hell. What a depressing life to live. Certianly not a Christian, and most definitely not a Catholic worldview. It must be a poor existence that the best you can do is whine about that I must believe that what you have said is really 'is true', but in reality, you've said nothing.

But alright, sure, I'll humor you even though the magisterium holds much more weight and authority than the private revelation of some young boy. So he was told he would have to say many rosaries. Unless you claim to be a semi-pelagian, what exactly does that mean? I'll say plenty more rosaries in my own life. Maybe you need to study salvation theology in the Catholic Church. It's clear you unfortunately don't have a clue. But that is what phatmass is all about converting folks such as yourself to Catholicism, bringing hope where there is none.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Tarcisius]

stop twisting words adam, i did not say I know that im going to hell. Of course I have hope but its also a reality that I deserve hell more than anyone. Also that wasnt a revelation by a young boy, that was told By the Blessed Mother to Sister Lucia, she revieled it later in her diary. It would make sense that you would make light of the revelations of Fatima. The significance is that this young, near perfect child, who the Blessed Mother knew would die shortly after was in danger of eternal damnation. If that doesnt make you tremble i dont know what would.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]
stop twisting words adam, i did not say I know that im going to hell. Of course I have hope but its also a reality that I deserve hell more than anyone. [/quote]

Really, you know this for a fact? You deserve hell more than Hitler? More than Saul as he participated in Stephens stoning? I think your answers here are based mostly on emotion and less on solid fact.

[quote]Also that wasnt a revelation by a young boy, that was told By the Blessed Mother to Sister Lucia, she revieled it later in her diary. It would make sense that you would make light of the revelations of Fatima. The significance is that this young, near perfect child, who the Blessed Mother knew would die shortly after was in danger of eternal damnation. If that doesnt make you tremble i dont know what would.[/quote]

For instace, the fact is that the Church teaches that Protestants are members of the Catholic Church communio non plena. The Catechism states and qualifies no salvation outside the Church validly, schismatic traditionalists are not the magisterium. Fact, no one said salvation is not worked out through fear and trembling, but it is also a fact that no one is a judge of another persons salvation. It is a fact that all those who die in a state of grace go to heaven, no matter how horrible their sins are, and it is a fact that Catholics are not semi-pelagians. Heaven is a gift of God and is not found by the work of man apart from grace.

[jasJis]

[quote] "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and [b]schismatics[/b] can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels,[/quote]Hey, I may get to meet some of y'all from here.

Edited April 26, 2006 by jasJis

[Franimus]

From what I learned from my Catholic theology professor:
"There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church" really should be worded that "All salvation is within the Catholic Church." These two statements are rather equal, no?
What these statements mean is that there is no means of salvation that is not found within the Catholic Church. For example, the Bible in its fullness is found within the Catholic Church. The Koran is not found within the Catholic Church. The Koran, obviously, is not a means of salvation whereas the Bible is. Obviously, the Bible is found also outside the Church, but it is not solely outside of the Church.
The same follows for Baptism.
Furthermore, God is not bound by any canon laws. Theoretically, one who commits suicide would go to Hell because in killing someone (themself) they commit a mortal sin, and they die in a state of grave sin. However, if you read up on Church teaching (I might be able to find the canon references if you like), you'll find that the Church never makes any declarations of any person being in Hell for sure. We do not know if God's mercy prevails in any individual case and an individual who, by our theology, would be in Hell is actually a saint.

[MichaelFilo]

Hahaha, I love professors.. but alas... unless they are priests, they should probably get a job teachin elsewhere. It is a ruinious thing to have professors not consecrated to the religious life or wed to the Church...
The idea that God should establish a way of salvation and then work outside of it has been, I regret to say, a more modern thing that, for all I can gather, maybe akin to the idea that babies go to a holding pen awaiting Christ's Return. It's nice, but a novelty. It seems instead better to say that God will lead all those whom He finds worthy to the path of Salvation He has already put on this Earth, because if we are to say anything else, that is the Church maybe "gone around" and still enter heaven is to open the door to the errors that are so frequent. And no, Extra Eccalasiam Non Salus really does mean, outside of the Catholic Church, there is no salvation; not Intra Eccelsiam Salus (poor Latin, forgive me, I just took a Latin test today, and alas, results are frightening). The Church is exclusivist because Jesus is; he deemed himself the only way to Salvation, so too the Church mimics that which She is the Body of, namely our Lord.

As far as the boy in question, I have read the story of Fatima, of the boy and the two girls, and you ought to know Francesco stole a small amount of money from his father, comparable to about mere cents today, but he did steal, and while he often went to confession for it, he had to do much to satisfy for the grevious sin.

The reality of Christian life is this, that God leads all to the Truth who seek him ernestly, and the Truth will forever stand on the pillar of truth, the Catholic Church.

I will say this, the article has at least clarified the place of all those baptized, ignorant of the Church, and who commit mortal sin. It at least settles this issue in my mind. It would seem in their baptism they attain the same graces that we do, and although taught error, they cannot be held responsible for it. If they should commit mortal sin, they call off that grace and are sentenced to hell unless they should come upon the Catholic Church. Otherwise, they may live good lives in ignorance, and God, who loves the just man, will lead him to the truth of the Catholic Church. Sounds right, I'll take it.

God bless,
Mikey

Edited April 27, 2006 by MichaelFilo