Circle_Master Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 (edited) perhaps your defination of faith is incorrect then, because all the passages said it was faith that brought salvation. Your logic is impeccable however, so thus your definition is wrong, or scripture is . Faith is also seen as synonymous to belief. And seems to be the same idea as 'Calling on the LORD' in the Old Testament. This is more than just 'believing' something. It is a truth to you that you act upon. And it is something which grows by experience. Faith is never blind, but build upon proof. and no to the faith and works thing, because I believe a person can be saved, and never have any works. I.E. someone on their death bed who 'genuinely' becomes saved. He never has a chance for works, sure he loves God and would do some, but there are none. Can a person be saved and walk in sin for a long time? Possibly, but I would doubt the genuineness of their faith from the beginning. Edited December 26, 2003 by Circle_Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 Is there a part of your definition of faith taht you're expecting me to disagree with . We should be holy as our Father in Heaven is holy. adendum: the sacraments are physical signs of graces actually recieved by partaking of them, not good works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 "and no to the faith and works thing, because I believe a person can be saved, and never have any works. I.E. someone on their death bed who 'genuinely' becomes saved. He never has a chance for works, sure he loves God and would do some, but there are none. Can a person be saved and walk in sin for a long time? Possibly, but I would doubt the genuineness of their faith from the beginning." This was added while I was outside. I agree with every line of this. But we (or at least I am)are talking about what is NORMATIVE, not extraordinary circumstances involving an particular individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozencell Posted December 26, 2003 Author Share Posted December 26, 2003 anyway I am going to bed. And yesterday, on a different thread called the gospel, many of you said that baptism, the eucherist, and confession were also necessary for salvation. This kindof contradicts 'faith alone' don't cha think? Last I checked the Catholic Church didn't believe in faith alone...so...... Secondly, we have to once again take Scripture in context. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I think the Apostle was only recalling individuals in the OT and nothing more. Let's remember that certain things changed in the Bible between the OT and the NT. We're no longer required to sacrifice animals and the like to God for His favor, but He does command that we believe in His Son's death as a prerequisite of salvation. Faith without works is like if I got a car loan for 25,000 dollars and never made my payments and getting to keep the car. It makes no sense. You cannot live in Christ and do what He commands, with faith or otherwise, without works. Therefore works are a requirement of salvation (excluding your friend on the deathbed...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only". (KJV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 i ole! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundsheep Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 and then you contradict Romans 4:1-2 which says Abraham was not justified by works, but by belief. And also Galatians 2:16 which says man is justified by faith. Even Romans 3:22 which talks about the righteousness of God ... 'through faith'. Your verse itself is from James which also says "prove yourselves doers of the word" indicating what he is speaking of is AFTER salvation. Not at salvation. proving yourself a doer of the word is works. That means acting Like a christian to others. You are saying the bible contradicts itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 I can see what drove Bruce insane now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 pride? :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 (edited) perhaps your defination of faith is incorrect then, because all the passages said it was faith that brought salvation. Your logic is impeccable however, so thus your definition is wrong, or scripture is . Faith is also seen as synonymous to belief. And seems to be the same idea as 'Calling on the LORD' in the Old Testament. This is more than just 'believing' something. It is a truth to you that you act upon. And it is something which grows by experience. Faith is never blind, but build upon proof. and no to the faith and works thing, because I believe a person can be saved, and never have any works. I.E. someone on their death bed who 'genuinely' becomes saved. He never has a chance for works, sure he loves God and would do some, but there are none. Can a person be saved and walk in sin for a long time? Possibly, but I would doubt the genuineness of their faith from the beginning. So, simply calling out to the Lord in faith is an act or "work"? and no to the faith and works thing, because I believe a person can be saved, and never have any works. This is contrary to Scripture. I.E. someone on their death bed who 'genuinely' becomes saved. Like, how does that happen?! He never has a chance for works, how can you be sure he's never performed any good works in his entire life? sure he loves God and would do some, but there are none. This is a bizarre scenario. Suddenly, with no previous love of neighbor or kind deeds, a dying person falls deeply in love with God. However, there is something which you have failed to even consider. The Church teaches that suffering is a redemptive act. So, the dying person is working out his salvation--with works, the work of suffering. And it may even be that that suffering, that work, was what drew him to Jesus, Who suffered and died, so that he might have life. Now there's something to grasp onto for a dying person, and to genuinely fall in love with Christ for. Can a person be saved and walk in sin for a long time? Possibly, but I would doubt the genuineness of their faith from the beginning. So, you're not a sinner? Wow, now that is rare in these parts! We's all sinners here! Edited December 26, 2003 by Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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