Holding Hands

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

I also find it odd that some of those who have concern about drinking from the Chalice claiming spread of virus, at the same time have no problem holding the hands next to them, not knowing where or what those hands have been doing...

[PopeClementI(MorClemis)]

Also, the orans position isn't the pentecostal halleluiah pose! =0) it's a less dramatic hands out, palms up, stretched to the chest level stance..

[whiskeyrunner]

Newbie here. I heard a Priest once who wrote a book called "Mass Confusion." He stated that hand holding during the Our Father draws away from the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the focal point of unity in the Mass. Kinda makes sense. Eucharist isn't the focal point of unity in the Mass anymore if we're all turning the Our Father into it before we receive Our Lord. I'm not sure either way. This just makes sense to me. But if I'm in a Parish where everybody is doing it I go along with it. Better to have harmony in the Mass then disorder. Unless it would invalidate the Mass or make part of it illicit.

[elizabeth_jane]

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1427669' date='Dec 1 2007, 02:15 AM']Also, the orans position isn't the pentecostal halleluiah pose! =0) it's a less dramatic hands out, palms up, stretched to the chest level stance..[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification--we do not need any hallelujah poses, thank you.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1427572' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:29 PM']I personally don't like holding hands, particularly because the Bishops have firmly recommended against it in the U.S. I prefer to hold a prayer posture with my hands throughout the mass (must be the altar boy in me). What bugs me are the "Hand-Holding Nazis". These are the people that will give you a dirty look if you refuse to hold hands and/or hold their hand up right in front of your face; or worse yet -- grab your hand anyways without any regard for your personal wishes. Since when did Facism become acceptable if it pertains to communal spirituality?[/quote]
Yeah, I do the altar boy prayer posture too... it keeps me focused throughout mass. I'm against the avid hand-holders who go out to try and grab your hand or give a dirty look. I was at a diocesan festival this summer (I was a group leader in it) and there was a woman who was strangly charismatic like/60ish, who took my hand and my friend's hand during the our Father, and I had my hands folded up near my chest and my eyes shut... like seriously... gah!!! She had talked to me earlier about going to visit an aleged Marian appareation site...

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1427664' date='Dec 1 2007, 01:02 AM']I also find it odd that some of those who have concern about drinking from the Chalice claiming spread of virus, at the same time have no problem holding the hands next to them, not knowing where or what those hands have been doing...[/quote]
Yeah, they hold hands with the person next to them, then receive communion in the hand. To me, that sounds like drinking from the chalice.

[quote name='PopeClementI(MorClemis)' post='1427669' date='Dec 1 2007, 01:15 AM']Also, the orans position isn't the pentecostal halleluiah pose! =0) it's a less dramatic hands out, palms up, stretched to the chest level stance..[/quote]
Thanks for the heads up. I see people doing the whole charismatic stance... it sort of bugs me cause it looks like they're doing the same thing as the priest. My mom said that people in that "hallelujah" stance look like Pentecostals. lawl.

[EJames2]

[quote name='elizabeth_jane' post='1427566' date='Nov 30 2007, 07:15 PM']This is really easy--
The GIRM says not to hold hands, but to put your hands in the "orans" (palms-up) position for the prayer. As soon as the prayer proper ends (as in, "...but deliver us from evil"), you drop your hands. The priest keeps his up--you don't![/quote]
[quote]but to put your hands in the "orans" (palms-up) position for the prayer.[/quote]
Pax!
i understand/stood from my experience-study and the occasional trips to a Novus Ordo Missa,that the orans position is reserved to Priests as offering the Rite, i do not find the reference in the GIRM you speak of for any rubric like this of the peoples.(i only find it referring to Priests -main Celebrant and con-celebrants), if you may point me to the reference please would be very helpful fro me...thank-you very much.

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[img]http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/34/05/23420534.jpg[/img]

Edited December 1, 2007 by EJames2

[jeffpugh]

I had also heard that too... I'll go with EJames on this one. Besides, like I said, I keep the "altar boy" stance through the mass (see example above)

[Paladin D]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1413467' date='Nov 2 2007, 11:59 PM']Quite frankly if one is thinking more about the person he or she is holding hands with than about the petitions of the Lord's Prayer he or she is praying, that's not a good thing, and therefore, because holding hands is such a near occasion of distraction, it should not be done during the Our Father.[/quote]

Absolutely.

From my understanding, there is currently nothing in the GIRM that gives the faithful a definite answer in terms of posture during the Our Father; however, if holding hands distracts you from focusing on the Eucharist, then I strongly advise against it. Which is why starting next Sunday, I'm going to start making a habit of [b]not[/b] holding hands, and if the person next to me asks why, I'll happily tell them later.

[EJames2]

[quote]True, there is no explicit rule against it; the orans posture is not even mentioned in the GIRM! There is no rule against standing on the head or flapping the arms either, but PRUDENCE would stop most people from doing any of those things during the mass. But hey nothing will stop a charismatic on a mission and don’t you know they are on a mission to witness to the rest of us spiritually stunted Catholics?

[b]GIRM paragraphs 43 and 160 deal with posture during the Mass[/b], and the only posture specified for the congregation is during the Lord's Prayer – which is standing. [b]It says nothing at all about what people are to do with their hands. [/b]Standing means standing and doesn’t have anything to do with your arms. So there is no change from the past.

Keep in mind though that no one, not even a bishop has the authority to introduce novelties to the Catholic liturgy. (#390, General Instruction to the Roman Missal).[/quote]
GIRM paragraphs 43 and 160 deal with posture during the Mass, and the only posture specified for the congregation is during the Lord's Prayer – which is standing. It says nothing at all about what people are to do with their hands. Standing means standing and doesn’t have anything to do with your arms. So there is no change from the past.

Keep in mind though that no one, not even a bishop has the authority to introduce novelties to the Catholic liturgy. (#390, General Instruction to the Roman Missal).

Furthermore, Canon 846 §1 states that in celebrating the sacraments the liturgical books approved by competent authority are to be observed faithfully; accordingly, no one is to add, omit, or alter anything in them on one’s own authority. To introduce new rites or gestures into the liturgy would require a two-thirds majority vote in the Conference of Bishops and the approval of the Holy See. To this day neither the US Conference of Bishops nor the Holy See has introduced new posture for the congregation during prayer. So the practice is not expressly forbidden; the same way that standing on the head or flapping the arms are not forbidden either.

Customarily in the Church a bishop or priest addresses prayers to God while standing with hands slightly raised and outstretched (Ceremonial of Bishops, number 104).

Deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not use gestures or actions which are proper to the priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to "quasi preside" at the Mass (Instruction on Collaboration, Practical Provisions 6 §2).

With a view to uniformity in gestures and postures during Mass, the faithful should follow the directions indicated in the Missal (General Instruction on the Roman Missal #43).
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[quote]For the laity praying in the orans position during the Lord’s Prayer or at any other time during the mass is a novelty. The orans posture has NOT been authorized by the Church for the laity to use.

In Cannon Law, if a posture is directed for the priest but is not directed as a posture for the laity, it is a priestly gesture. According to Vatican documents, the orans is directed to the priest; therefore it is a priestly gesture.

Regardless where you live, in the Latin Church, EVERYTHING is prescribed for the Mass, because the liturgy is the prayer of not just one person, one community of priest and congregation. It is the prayer of the entire Roman Catholic Church, the entire Mystical Body of Christ.[/quote]

USCCB:
42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered. 52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
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EWTN:
Orans Posture

The following explains the origin of the Orans position, in which the priest intercedes during the liturgy on behalf of all. In the last couple decades this posture of praying with hands extended and lifted upwards has become a popular prayer posture for many laity, especially in the Charismatic Renewal.” Well wonders never cease!

“In the rubrics the Orans gesture is asked principally of the Main Celebrant, but on those occasions where either a priestly action is done (Eucharistic Prayer) or prayer in common (Our Father) all the concelebrants do it.

It is never done by the Deacon, who does not represent the People before God but assists him who does.

Among the laity this practice began with the charismatic renewal. Used in private prayer it has worked its way into the Liturgy. It is a legitimate gesture to use when praying, as history shows, however, it is a private gesture when used in the Mass and in some cases conflicts with the system of signs which the rubrics are intended to protect. The Mass is not a private or merely human ceremony. The symbology of the actions, including such gestures, is definite and precise, and reflects the sacramental character of the Church's prayer. As the Holy See has recently pointed out, confusion has entered the Church about the hierarchical nature of her worship, and this gesture certainly contributes to that confusion when it conflicts with the ordered sign language of the Mass.”
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B.Donovan, STL, apologist EWTN:

"The Orans is not discussed in the GIRM. Taken by itself it is not a licit posture for the laity, since it is associated in the liturgical rites with priests when they speak on behalf of all. Most of the time the only one doing it is the presider, except when concelebrants speak parts of the Eucharistic Prayer, or, when they all pray the Our Father.

Some liturgists have taken the position that it is better to have the laity do something other than hold hands at the Our Father (which is definitely wrong and proscribed by Rome), so let's have them do the orans. The postures of the laity are not spoken of much at all in the rubrics, so it appears to be a harmless custom to introduce. However, I do not think this is true. When this solution is adopted you end up with the anomaly that the priest and the people are doing the orans, but the deacon is not. This says sacramentally that the priest and people are interceeding, but the deacon is not? To correct it, so that the orans at the Our Father becomes a generic sign of the entire Mystical Body interceeding (and in principle that would be seem to be possible), would require an adaptation of the rubrics for the United States by the Holy See. To my knowledge such an adaptation has not been obtained." New GIRM Postures

Edited December 6, 2007 by EJames2

[EJames2]

Holding Hands During the Lord's Prayer
Straight Answers By Fr. William Saunders
[url="http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/99ws/ws990715.htm"]http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/99ws/ws990715.htm[/url]

[prose]

I can not believe we have 10 pages devoted to this.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='prose' post='1430973' date='Dec 7 2007, 10:54 PM']

I can not believe we have 10 pages devoted to this.[/quote]


Arg... I can't believe this got bumped up.

[johnnydigit]

lately i've been feeling the evil-eye from old ladies around me when i don't walk over to hold hands. i fold my hands. i close my eyes and imagine heaven unfolding before my eyes with Jesus. when there is someone right next to me, i look to see if they are offering their hand, and i take it so they don't feel rejected. i would like uniformity and i don't want people looking at me.

there is just too much confusion and i wish we would just make one rule clear for all, fold your hands, hold them, or orans! i wiped my nose the other day because watching the washing of the feet got me teary eyed, and i used my right eyed. i thought, "carp, i just put snot on my hand, and now someone will want to hold it. good thing i don't receive in the hand, because my snot would get on it."

germs, snot, sweat, discomfort.. holding hands is great outside of Mass in small groups, but not for Mass. why won't they just make a statement already!

[jeffpugh]

Sort of like the sign of peace thing too. Do we have to shake hands? I just sort of give a simple nod and smile toward others. I guess that's a whole other thread

[Dismas]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1481844' date='Mar 22 2008, 06:27 PM']Sort of like the sign of peace thing too. Do we have to shake hands? I just sort of give a simple nod and smile toward others. I guess that's a whole other thread[/quote]

St. Paul wrote for us to kiss each other, and Paul meant on the lips!

Please note that with the exception of family members who initiate (I won't), I'm pretty resistant to holding hands during the Our Father.

Edited March 23, 2008 by Dismas