Happy Fun Gun Poll and Thread

[Snarf]

Guns are generally something that set me on the fence. On the one hand, I grew up with guns, learned to respect them, I understand their place in history and in modernity, my grandfather as a teenager had to hunt for his family's meals, and the family of one of my best friends owns one of the most successful independently-owned gun suppliers in Central Indiana. I've earned both my Shotgun and Rifle Merit Badges and once upon a time was quite a marksman.

On the other hand, I'm a godless liberal so I obviously side with those who think that anything remotely gun-like should be confiscated by the United Nations so that they can be used by the International Jewish Banking Conspiracy to usher in the New World Order.

In reality, I tend to believe that law-abiding citizens should have the right to essentially any device they feel might aid in well-regulating their militia, or at least let them feel safe. However, I feel that the gun registration system should be greatly revamped in accord with new technologies, and virtually every practical firearm should be registered. This idea scares the pants off of my friend, grounded in reasons that I wouldn't shy away from calling paranoia. On that:

The main argument against registration is that it was first invented by the Nazis to facilitate the eventual removal of all guns from civilian hands. This made it substantially easier to deport unarmed undesirables to the death camps and such. As far as I know, that's genuine history. However, it's still paranoid to uproot that event and apply it to a modern context. Gun registration in 1930s Europe had no practical function in regards to benefitting society. Gun registration in the 2000s, however, shows infinite potential in regards to forensic investigation and crime prevention. I've heard it said that there have been only something like two cases wherein registration has proven useful in solving crimes since the inception of the program. Not only is that position logically untenable, but it is exceptionally unreasonable in its demands of a program in its infancy. Obviously, it's going to be years before all guns that AT PRESENT should be registered, get registered. That's the nature of the beast. However, it falls quite short from being a valid argument.

As an aside, I must concede that there is a lot of stupidity in gun legislation. The Assault Rifles Ban, for instance, has no sound definition of what an assault rifle [i]is[/i], except basically saying "a rifle, that looks scary and assault-like".

My main deal is that I have no problem with guns. Gun culture, however, is an ugly anachronism without which America would be a much better place. Say what you want about Michael Moore, his worst mistake in BFC was presenting the mainstay of gun culture as fringe groups that live in communes. It's not. Gun culture pervades in day-to-day America among reasonable, good-natured people. However, they are often dreadfully myopic. For many, gun rights are not a political issue, it is the only political issue. In this regard, they throw out their votes to the Republican Party, which kindly thanks them with tax rewards that will never apply to them, destruction of the natural resources they cherish, a pointless war that kills their children, and other such niceties. (I'd go ahead and bash the Democratic Party for equilibrium, but I don't believe in fairy tales.)

I have met many individuals that are convinced that the next time a democrat is elected, their guns WILL be confiscated, there WILL be a people's revolt, and those clever enough to keep their guns WILL inherit the nation. It absolutely boggles my mind how such a large portion of the country can be so disillusioned, but that's reality. I absolutely hate the American two-party political system, because it will forever perpetuate each group exploiting demographics by pandering to a group in one regard and disenfranchising them the next.

[toledo_jesus]

A standing army was never supposed to be like ours today. The Founders wanted to make double sure no tyrant could seize control through military force. Until the 1900s, militias were the norm on our frontiers. It behooved the militiaman to practice with his weapon, so he had his own gun. Likewise, there were batteries that had militia weapons stored.

Now, that need is passed. However, the need for the citizens to guard against the government has not. Look at the federal gov't now...a bloated tick on the neck of the average American, dominant over the states, completely centralized.

There may come a time when we need our guns.

[Norseman82]

My general view is that if you want to play with military toys, you should join the military or go to a range.

Other than that, I think the wrong approach is being looked at when it comes to firearm control laws. The approach should be based on the principle "law-abiding citizens should be able to have them, gang-bangers should not".

I do think people who want to own, rent, use firearms should get firearm safety training. I know in previous generations, most people were either rural and came out of the womb wearing a holster or, like my father, served in the military. I'm not the biggest fan of some of the extremists in the NRA, but the NRA does offer firearm safety training (I took one of them).

Interesting side note: in Switzerland, all able-bodied adult males are required to be in the reserves and so have their firearm at home (at least it used to be like that).

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Snarf' post='953669' date='Apr 19 2006, 05:32 AM']
the family of one of my best friends owns one of the most successful independently-owned gun suppliers in Central Indiana. [/quote]
Don's Guns? "I don't want to make any money, I just love to sell guns!"

[Snarf]

Wyatt's, in Cicero but it supplies to the Hamilton County and Kokomo Police Depts. But I do hear a lot about Don from them.

[MichaelFilo]

I believe that once guns are removed from the people's hands then they may fall again into oppression. Welcome to reality; key examples, the communist states. And yes, an armed malitia is still neccessary.. it won't stop a nuke, but it will beat the living hell out of rioters and such.

God bless,
Mikey

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

although, as a priest i may never plan on owning a personal firearm for my protection...

I see nothing wrong with going out for a hunt every now and then (although i never have, i want to severely)

SHALOM

[MichaelFilo]

Well, after my ordination, I am sure to keep away from guns, I prefer the Word of God, because it's sharper than a double edged sword.. so it may offer more protection than a gun may ever provide for me, and it's alot cheaper to get. But, while I may not chose to excercise the right, I will not harnass my opinions on the exercise of the right on others, but will vote according to whether such a right actually exists in my views.

God bless,
Mikey

[Socrates]

[quote name='Snarf' post='953669' date='Apr 19 2006, 03:32 AM']
My main deal is that I have no problem with guns. Gun culture, however, is an ugly anachronism without which America would be a much better place. Say what you want about Michael Moore, his worst mistake in BFC was presenting the mainstay of gun culture as fringe groups that live in communes. It's not. Gun culture pervades in day-to-day America among reasonable, good-natured people. However, they are often dreadfully myopic. For many, gun rights are not a political issue, it is the only political issue. In this regard, they throw out their votes to the Republican Party, which kindly thanks them with tax rewards that will never apply to them, destruction of the natural resources they cherish, a pointless war that kills their children, and other such niceties. (I'd go ahead and bash the Democratic Party for equilibrium, but I don't believe in fairy tales.)

I have met many individuals that are convinced that the next time a democrat is elected, their guns WILL be confiscated, there WILL be a people's revolt, and those clever enough to keep their guns WILL inherit the nation. It absolutely boggles my mind how such a large portion of the country can be so disillusioned, but that's reality. I absolutely hate the American two-party political system, because it will forever perpetuate each group exploiting demographics by pandering to a group in one regard and disenfranchising them the next.
[/quote]
Actually, there was an old thread/poll on this topic some time back, though it seems, thanks to dUSt's current remodeling, that the search feature is not working.

So is the point of this thread the about Second Amendment and firearms, or a rant against Republicans, conservatives, and "gun culture"?

Sounds like you better start stocking up on heavy arms and ammo just in case us Evil Conservatives take over the government, establish a Theocracy, break into your home, put cops in your bedroom, and try to haul you off to the gas chamber for your wacky, heretical liberal views.

[indescribable]

in japan, they are not allowed to have firearms. at all.

as a result their death of fire arms per year hovers around 20. while ours... well, does anyone want to count into the high thousands?

i personally as a Catholic think that i shouldn't use that unnecessary force against other people or things... but that being said, i don't have my own family so i don't know what it would be like to defend them.

but i don't understand how its sport to kill things. unless you're hungry. otherwise enjoy the hunting grounds of mothers-- the supermarket.

[Snarf]

[i]So is the point of this thread the Second Amendment and firearms, or a rant against Republicans, conservatives, and "gun culture"?[/i]

I'm sorry you're incapable of handling more than one facet of any given issue. Asking about the Constitutionality of guns is pretty empty without considering the modern environment of the politics of guns. Republicans steal votes by preying on the paranoia that liberals are going to steal everyone's guns. Democrats steal votes by preying on the paranoia that people are dying left and right from guns. Unfortunately, the only thing you're capable of gathering in is that your way of life, whatever it is, is being attacked and ridiculed because you suffer from some victim complex.

In making a thread that highlights the fact that not everything can be polarized, I knew your gut reaction would be to ignore the subject matter to polarize it regardless. But, surely the great Socrates could maintain his composure and demonstrate maturity befitting his age by NOT doing that. Right?

[Socrates]

Ignoring the silly ad hominems here and moving on . . .

The issue here should be the meaning of the Second Amendment and how this applies to the constitutionality of gun laws.

The Second Amendment seems to be pretty clear on this ". . . the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

That should be the issue. Neither the behavior of politicians trying to get votes, nor the real or alleged paranoia of various people whould have any bearing on the constitutionality of laws. That is a red herring.

Politicians will be politicians and try to exploit any issue to gain votes. And every movement has its kooks and fanatics. Nothing unique here.

The problem with gun control laws is that they are an example of the government violating American citizens's Constitutional rights. True, the government has already done this in other areas, but this pattern should not be continued.

The Second Amendment is a safeguard against tyranny which Americans should be proud to defend.

[Snarf]

Yes, but it doesn't say anywhere that the government isn't allowed to know who keeps and bears arms. I find the case against registration to be non-existent.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Socrates' post='954395' date='Apr 19 2006, 06:43 PM']
Ignoring the silly ad hominems here and moving on . . .


[/quote]


Does that mean ignoring your own? :

Snarf. Guns are cool. Weapons of Mass Destruction are not. Government creep is as predictable as entropy.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='954428' date='Apr 19 2006, 08:15 PM']
Does that mean ignoring your own? :


[/quote]
oooh, BURN!