Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='dspen2005' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:14 PM']i know many NOers who are more knowledgeable and more faithful to the Church than the TLMers [right][snapback]951554[/snapback][/right] [/quote] look at the average though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Wow, I suppose joking online never came across well... nor do I actually equate children with farting, or any of that. I like children, if I had plans to have any, i'd have plenty, if God should so choose to let me, etc. Anyways, I go to the daily mass with the NOers (The noers?) and there are faithful ones... don't get me wrong, I think I spend a little time in my posts to make room for the exception. Anyways, the problem is, it is the exception. Now, again at my TLM church, where they say the NO, there are plenty of faithful people there too, don't get me wrong. I just find that outside of that atmosphere, that Church that is, you get a general decline in other Churches. I know this one Church that does these marches to nearby abortion clinics and such, and then on sAundays.. they are chewing gum and talking on their cells during mass and the priest doens't care.. see then I see someone like Fr. Conrad, a NO priest, yell at someone in the middle of Mass for that, and I get happy. There are exceptions, and faithful NO goers.. what do I also notice though? All those people who go to the nearby church for daily Mass end up going to the Church downtown on Sundays that has the TLM mass.. I could be wrong, but I sense that it may not even be the TLM itself.. just the type of people who would go to it that really make it something else, although I am in favor of the TLM for other reasons, not withstanding the current translation of the Mass into English is second rate at some points. I think if I hadn't seen both groups and had a chance to compare, I'd have said there are faithful NO going Christs.. and all.. but even they end up going to the TLM church (and some to the indult mass from time to time). But this is quite fruitless, because honestly, new Catholics don't fall in love with the TLM, because the NO is more accomadating to PRotestants and the current age, and this is a fact. (Someone please mention Sungenis (sp?) and prove me wrong, but he's a bit crazy, have you read his converstion story?) Anywho, if I didn't see the NO daily massers go 30 minutes out of their way to go to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought.. I'd say nothing, but I do. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusITrustInYou Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 11:33 PM']Anywho, if I didn't see the NO daily massers go 30 minutes out of their way to go to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought.. I'd say nothing, but I do. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951617[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Didn't Anthony entitle this thread "there is only one Holy Catholic Church"? "...to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought" Isn't the NO Mass approved by the Church? But perhaps you're talking that way because you've seen a lot of abuses in NO Masses...and that does sound like that's your story...so, I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences at NO Masses... I'm not going to try to change your preference. If you like going to the TLM, good! I think I would like it too if I ever got to go, but I've only ever been to NO Masses... Anyway, please let's all keep in mind that people have preferences, and we don't need to change them. Both Masses are approved by the Church. Both are THE MASS. It's good that people like and attend the TLM, because that way it won't die out. It's a good tradition. But the NO Mass is wonderful too. So I bow out now, begging you to keep in mind Anthony's title for this thread..."there is only one Holy Catholic Church" Edited April 18, 2006 by JesusITrustInYou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) Isn't it lucky that we can squabble about what type of Mass is better to attend when some of our brothers risk their life to attend any kind of Mass. Why help our enemies? Let them attempt to divide us. Put apart the petty differences and realize we are unified in Christ. Whether you prefer the NO or the TLM, in the end, we all are Praising the Christ. Rejoice and be glad. Edited April 18, 2006 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:33 PM']There are exceptions, and faithful NO goers.. what do I also notice though? All those people who go to the nearby church for daily Mass end up going to the Church downtown on Sundays that has the TLM mass.. I could be wrong, but I sense that it may not even be the TLM itself.. just the type of people who would go to it that really make it something else, although I am in favor of the TLM for other reasons, not withstanding the current translation of the Mass into English is second rate at some points. I think if I hadn't seen both groups and had a chance to compare, I'd have said there are faithful NO going Christs.. and all.. but even they end up going to the TLM church (and some to the indult mass from time to time). But this is quite fruitless, because honestly, new Catholics don't fall in love with the TLM, because the NO is more accomadating to PRotestants and the current age, and this is a fact. (Someone please mention Sungenis (sp?) and prove me wrong, but he's a bit crazy, have you read his converstion story?) Anywho, if I didn't see the NO daily massers go 30 minutes out of their way to go to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought.. I'd say nothing, but I do. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951617[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Just my two centavi, I would go to the Tridentine Mass, but the only one at home is in downtown at 6:30 pm on Sunday night and the one here isn't exactly the most reverent or best Mass...I normally go to the Novus Ordo out of convenience (well, actually because I'm scared to wait until 6:30) or because the Novus Ordo at which I assist (in the older sense of the word, pre-Vatican II and post Vatican II as it should be, not as it is.......) is much more reverent than anything I know of. Plus, one of my favourite Priests is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 I hate to repeat myself, but I will.. in the end the Eucharist ties us together (valid and licit) and keeps those who are slaves to the enemy outside. (Even the Orthodox in the end are fallen from the fullness of truth of Christ). And like I said, this is an issue for the TLM stock, not the NO stock, who have no problem ignoring the other group. The TLM stock tends to be the rowdier ones.. but thats only because they see so much room for improvement in the state of the Church (which there is, especially in these days). They also tend to be more faith centered as opposed to works centered (but end up doing more good thing as I've seen the two communities). And while you may say bad experiences.. and it maybe just that.. when you got 3 or 4 churches which I've seen that say the NO doing the same thing (one to amuch lesser extent) and then a church that says the TLM and the NO with two priests who seem to get it right.. I just don't know, I think we can know work by it's fruits. At any rate, one Church, right? Just some of us want to see the old glory return, for surely the graces are there, it's just the harvesters aren't reaping. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 I think we just need to return to the Eucharist. As you keep saying, it is what ties us together. If the Church as a whole would return to the love that is Jesus in the Eucharist, and have the fire of faith re-enkindled in their souls, the Church could be one again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote]And like I said, this is an issue for the TLM stock, not the NO stock, who have no problem ignoring the other group. The TLM stock tends to be the rowdier ones.. but thats only because they see so much room for improvement in the state of the Church (which there is, especially in these days). They also tend to be more faith centered as opposed to works centered (but end up doing more good thing as I've seen the two communities).[/quote] I agree here...I personally prefer the Tridentine Mass, but for now, I'll take whatever offers the least distraction. [quote]And while you may say bad experiences.. and it maybe just that.. when you got 3 or 4 churches which I've seen that say the NO doing the same thing (one to amuch lesser extent) and then a church that says the TLM and the NO with two priests who seem to get it right.. I just don't know, I think we can know work by it's fruits.[/quote] I wish I could assist at St. John Cantius in Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:06 PM']I agree here...I personally prefer the Tridentine Mass, but for now, I'll take whatever offers the least distraction. I wish I could assist at St. John Cantius in Chicago. [right][snapback]951692[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i want to go there. it looks quite beatiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 It is wonderful! Ask Colleen, she really likes it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC IMaGiNaZUN Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 TLM participants are very faithful and serious about religion. Good for them. But just because they are hardcore, does that necessarily mean that all people of all times in all places who have been to TLM are therefore necessarily as faithful? I would say it is naive to assume that there was some kind of heavenly perfect church when all the priests where faithful to the magisterium and there was no such thing as liturgical abuse. I prefer TLM simply because it reveals the divine mystery better than an in your face NO. However, many people criticize the Western World and the collapse of religion and sometimes go so far as to blame it on the NO itself. Many others, including myself lay much fault to those who use NO to promote their own agendas. However, it would be naive to only measure the fruit in the western world, when Africa, Vietname, Philipines, and India have had rapid conversion and vocation rates since the introduction of NO. In other third world countries which have their own traditional expression, they are not afraid, ashamed, or too lazy to quite mass after an hour. It would be odd for them to have sunday mass less than two hours. I can see a lot of fruit of NO in other countries, which have cultures that Latin and Rome make little or no sense. SHALOM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 07:49 PM']a pope can teach error, unoffically. John XXII taught that No one saw the beatific vision until the after the Last Judgment. he even taught in sermons this point, after he became pope. Offically the Pope can not teach error, but it is certainly possible for Popes to unoffically teach error. [right][snapback]951500[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Although I agree with you in principle I've always seen John XXII as a bad example of this since the beatific vision wasn't even defined until after him(if I remember correctly) and as such he was free to speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:22 PM']look at the average though. [right][snapback]951581[/snapback][/right] [/quote] but u must have charity and thus cannot blanketly categorize those who attend the Missa Normativa as being of less faith and devotion as those who attend the TLM. (hopefully, as you grow up, these things will become evident for you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted April 18, 2006 Author Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:22 PM']look at the average though. [right][snapback]951581[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Despite what you think about the Novos Ordo Mass, I would much rather attend it as opposed to the SSPX churches you attend. The NO and the TLM are in reference to how the Mass is celebrated, not the type of Church it is. My point from the beginning is that the Church should not be separated by this distinction because people think that the other group of worshippers are worshipping wrong. The NO Mass is accepted and very widely used all over the world. The TLM is also available, but access is not always available to all peoples. I wish I could get through to you people that the NO and the TLM do not in any way refer to the Church as a whole, but rather the way the Mass is celebrated. We should respect each others beliefs and opinions and stop driving a wedge between ourselves over something such as our faith that should unite us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted April 18, 2006 Author Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='JesusITrustInYou' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:41 PM']Didn't Anthony entitle this thread "there is only one Holy Catholic Church"? "...to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought" Isn't the NO Mass approved by the Church? But perhaps you're talking that way because you've seen a lot of abuses in NO Masses...and that does sound like that's your story...so, I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences at NO Masses... I'm not going to try to change your preference. If you like going to the TLM, good! I think I would like it too if I ever got to go, but I've only ever been to NO Masses... Anyway, please let's all keep in mind that people have preferences, and we don't need to change them. Both Masses are approved by the Church. Both are THE MASS. It's good that people like and attend the TLM, because that way it won't die out. It's a good tradition. But the NO Mass is wonderful too. So I bow out now, begging you to keep in mind Anthony's title for this thread..."there is only one Holy Catholic Church" [right][snapback]951636[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thank you so much for actually reading what I wrote in my original thread. I find it refreshing that there is someone out there who understands why I have such issues. I feel almost as though that there will always be a division that shouldn't exist between the TLM and the NO worshippers and I am scared for the Church as a whole because such lack of understanding and truth is what drove so many away and caused such a huge separation from the Catholic faith. I don't want to see the Catholic Church divided over the way the Mass is celebrated, but it seems everytime I am on this phorum, there is always a thread titled "calling all TLM" or something to that extent. I don't want there to be so much debate, but I felt compelled to make a statement. I'm glad one person actually knew what I was talking about. Thank you and God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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