MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Well EENS, if you think he's fallen away, i think you need to pull your breeches up, and go be in schism, cause that was a whorishly mistaken comment. Regardless, I'd like to see some proof (one please) of your accusation. Anywho, is there a real difference? Yes. We are two different camps, vying for the same Church. Who will win? God. Guess what it's HIS Church, not ours. However, if you think thats a small reason, then I wish you would know what it is like to be rejected the Eucharist for wanting to show devotion to our Lord, or having a priest watch people chew gum in one of the churches built in the Novus Ordo tradition, like gigantic theatres, all circular, and then see them receive the Eucharist. It is a burden on my heart. It is much worse when yout alk to them about faith.. all they know is doing good works, faith is, "I believe in Jesus" and it stops there. They are very Protestant in that worship is secondary to community. Indeed, worship comes first (true worship, not rock show concerts and priests telling us jokes and playing violen (honestly, that was a new low, also singing happy birthday after the recital of petitions.. i don't know)) first, and from that follows a community based on the worship of God. This is a very real distinction.. you cannot live like a Catholic unless you know your Faith, and if you love the TLM, then you must love it, because no one would listen to Latin if they could choose English and didn't care what was happening. It is a big difference, and a serious division, but not for the neo-conservatives, but for the Traditionals. You won't see neo-cons (sounds kinda like a transforming robot, also a term used by white supremicists) talking much about traditionalists, it's a non-issue. They like where things are headed, since the Church is moving to accomadate for the changes of this world (one of it's goals has been to catch up wtih the world as it has been since 1789, the year of the satanic revolution in France), they feel no problem, but for Trads who love the Body of Christ because it is the same "Yesterday, today, and always" according to Paul (he says it about Christ) they see something has changed in style and mood. It is a oneway difference, the cure is to join the Novus Ordo attending masses (which isn't wrong at all, it is the Normal Mass of the Church), and ignore the rest of us, crying for the practices of our Fathers in Faith. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted April 18, 2006 Author Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:15 PM']there is one church. But the current Pope and many bishops have fallen away. In all reality, Trads and Novus Ordinarians are members of 2 different relegions. [right][snapback]951449[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So, you don't adhere to the authority of the Pope? In other words, you are still in schism with the Church despite your claims that you are not. Hmmm! That sounds as though you are a cafeteria catholic, despite your claims that you are not. This clears a lot up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Anthony' date='Apr 17 2006, 07:32 PM']So, you don't adhere to the authority of the Pope? In other words, you are still in schism with the Church despite your claims that you are not. Hmmm! That sounds as though you are a cafeteria catholic, despite your claims that you are not. This clears a lot up. [right][snapback]951478[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yanno... If there is a split... and the pope is on one side, and some other people are on the other side... I see no way that the other side could possibly be right. What with the whole Holy Spirit and Infalliblity and Catholic Church-ness of it all. If the pope and pretty much everyone else in the Church can go wrong, there was never a Church to begin with. Therefore, nothing to have split from. At the very least, the other side would have to claim to have a pope. And a good reason why their guy is the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Anthony' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:32 PM']So, you don't adhere to the authority of the Pope? In other words, you are still in schism with the Church despite your claims that you are not. Hmmm! That sounds as though you are a cafeteria catholic, despite your claims that you are not. This clears a lot up. [right][snapback]951478[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I ACCEPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE. but at the same time, he may possibly be a heretic, and he obviously holds ideas contray to Tradition. becuase of this, i will not except novelty Teachings. Neo-Catholics have a false view of what Catholic obidience is. if something the Pope says goes against the Faith and against God, one must oppose it. until you realise this, their is no hope for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 EENS makes a point. You can have some less than holy men as Popes, and you can have men of incorrect opinion, but none of them can ever teach their incorrect opinion. John Paul I (not the 2nd, please no flame/spam) wrote a letter showing his support for contraceptives.. before he became pope. Did he change his mind before he became pope? I don't know. All I know is that he wasn't against it (completly). God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 a pope can teach error, unoffically. John XXII taught that No one saw the beatific vision until the after the Last Judgment. he even taught in sermons this point, after he became pope. Offically the Pope can not teach error, but it is certainly possible for Popes to unoffically teach error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesChristi Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:40 PM']I ACCEPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE. but at the same time, he may possibly be a heretic, and he obviously holds ideas contray to Tradition. becuase of this, i will not except novelty Teachings. Neo-Catholics have a false view of what Catholic obidience is. if something the Pope says goes against the Faith and against God, one must oppose it. until you realise this, their is no hope for you. [right][snapback]951487[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Brother, in another thread today you said the following: [quote]im breaking the 4th. but my confessor said i could. i really don't know what to do.[/quote] If you don't know what to do in that situation, what makes you think you have the ability to discern "novelty" papal teachings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Does it come up anywhere else?!?!? If it does, it's not a novelty, I suppose. regardless, no pope as of late has been out making ex Cathedra statements, so we are safe. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:04 PM']Does it come up anywhere else?!?!? If it does, it's not a novelty, I suppose. regardless, no pope as of late has been out making ex Cathedra statements, so we are safe. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951526[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i really don't know what we are discussing. i agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:15 PM']there is one church. But the current Pope and many bishops have fallen away. In all reality, Trads and Novus Ordinarians are members of 2 different relegions. [right][snapback]951449[/snapback][/right] [/quote] u are too young, it seems, to know what u are talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusITrustInYou Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:31 PM']There is a very real difference, and it is most noticable in the crowd who goes to the TLM, and then that which goes to the NO. You do not have to hate the current church to be able to see which group is the one with faith to move mountains and which one is part of this world. However, the uniting factor, the Eucharist, is what ties it all together. Remember, there is no seperation as long as there is the Eucharist (licit and valid). God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951295[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh my...well...I go to the NO Mass, and I know lots of good people who do...people who do indeed have great faith...[i]maybe[/i] there is more room in the NO Mass for people to be careless (and other adjectives). But...I agree with Anthony: [quote name='Anthony' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:07 PM']However, you cannot judge with absolute certainty that all who attend the Novos Ordo Mass are like that you said. That isn't (or it shouldn't) be the reason why there is so much hostility between those who go to the Tridentine Mass and those who go to the Novos Ordo Mass. My point is that there is so many debates between people who go to the Novos Ordo and people who go to the Tridentine Mass. There should never be a debate like this because we believe the same thing and the Mass is still the Mass whether it is celebrated in Latin, Spanish, or English and whether it is the Novos Ordo Mass or the Tridentine Mass. Point is, we are all Catholic. Let's not debate with one another over how the Mass is said.[right][snapback]951437[/snapback][/right] [/quote] his first line, "you cannot judge with absolute certainty that all who attend the Novos Ordo Mass are like that you said" is how I feel too... I'm sorry if this seems that I'm judging you because of what you said... I'm sure you're just speaking from your experience and following your conscience. God bless! Edited April 18, 2006 by JesusITrustInYou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 That was a mean comment... I'm going to take up the arguement of the NAAMBL (North American Association for Man Boy Love) and say you are an ageist.. being young doesn't mean you are lesser in capacity to understand.. etc. But yes, when you consider that a pope can be of incorrect view, he is not wrong... Note, I don't think this is the case, but I'm not bound to his conciosince... God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 i know many NOers who are more knowledgeable and more faithful to the Church than the TLMers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:15 PM']there is one church. But the current Pope and many bishops have fallen away. In all reality, Trads and Novus Ordinarians are members of 2 different relegions. [right][snapback]951449[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:40 PM']I ACCEPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE. but at the same time, he may possibly be a heretic, and he obviously holds ideas contray to Tradition. becuase of this, i will not except novelty Teachings. Neo-Catholics have a false view of what Catholic obidience is. if something the Pope says goes against the Faith and against God, one must oppose it. until you realise this, their is no hope for you. [right][snapback]951487[/snapback][/right] [/quote] My heart pains in a way that is not able to be put into words. Please pray. Pray for me. Pray for yourself. I will pray for you. I really give up on this kind of discussion. It is fruitless. Please, for your own good, and that of the Church, spend time with Jesus in the Eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiller42 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:36 PM']modestly. One woman was explaining to her child what was going on in the Mass, trying to raise him in Truth, instead of letting [b]the little fluffy air extraction[/b] run around and be loud. Oh, and the family size count is also much closer to that of the "Go forth and multiply" numbering at the TLM. That is what I call some signs of the more faithful bunch. [right][snapback]951382[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Equating children with fluffy air extractions. That's good respect for God's creations. Let's see how it would sound if Jesus used such a description. [quote]The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the little fluffy air extractions come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."[/quote] Yea, looks like you properly represent your faith. I am privileged to learn from such a faith filled man. I agree with some of your points, but I don't think one needs to stand in Ivory tower to make the points. No group is protected from human error. Your faith-o-meter operates based on a lot of external signs. You are very concerned about what goes into one's mouth instead of what comes out. What is the point of all the prostrating if there is no internal conversion? When someone is involved in name calling and equating the young with fluffy air extractions? Make sure when you throw your rocks at the NO crowd that you don't break your pretty stain glass windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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