justification

[jesussaves]

I would like to make a couple notes on justificaiton as I've been taught by Catholics. This is especially for Pap, as we've had ongoing diaglouge on this and he can be very insightful. I've been taught that they believe that works do not justify with faith even with graced works, or that's been insinuated much, maybe the doctrine is left unclear as I've been taught. I found this however that would lead one to believe that the works are part of the picture.. graced works justify.

[quote]Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, [b]excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them[/b], or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. [/quote]



On a final note, even if you didn't believe in graced works and I am misunderstanding, Christians still reject your notion that you can go to hell for a single mortal sin that you're living in or that God will judge you for where you happen to be when you die. It's all about the direction of your life, not a technicality if you happen to have a mortal or grave if you will sin.

[Chester]

The Council of Trent teaches that good works increase our existing justification.

[N/A Gone]

give me some fatty links on our offical view of justification.

[Theoketos]

N.T. Wright has a book called "What St. Paul Really Said" I endorse everything in the book minus one chapter...

Basically We are saved a Church, through Grace by Faith.

[Chester]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Apr 16 2006, 11:33 PM']give me some fatty links on our offical view of justification.
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Our official view of justification is the [url="http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html"]Sixth Session of the Council of Trent[/url].

[Paphnutius]

Jesussaves,

Welcome back to phatmass! I think you will find my participation outside of these threads with you will be few and far between for I had left phatmass a week or so ago due to certain reasons. I have decided, however, to post in threads with you so as to continue the discussion we have and the work we have started.

Let us take this canon and break it down first before we start coming to conclusions. I find this translation to be a little better simply because of the grammar which makes it easier for reading. [quote] CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema. [/quote]

The first part:[quote]If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ,[/quote]The aim of this statement is to say that the grace of Justification is not only imputed but infused. Grace is not simply God's way of at looking at your soul, but it is infused into your very soul. It has real effects on you and cleanses you, which results in sanctification. Grace is not some royal decree, but a real and effective agent. This part of the canon is to clarify that Justification is not God calling something which is in reality filthy with sin clean, but it is actually the effective cleaning of the sin.

[quote]or by the sole remission of sins[/quote]Here the Church wishes to clarify that simply because one's sins are forgiven does not mean that one is Justified. It is a real part of Justification, but not exhaustive of the process. Those that believe, "I am forgiven of my sins I am going to heaven," neglect the sanctification aspect of Justification. The inner man must also be renewed and sanctified for Justification to be complete.

[quote]to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them[/quote]This part, the part which you highlighted, only serves to even further clarify the proceeding clause. If one says that only our sins need be forgiven so as to exclude the neccisty of grace and charity (renewal of the inner man as I sated above) then that is incorrect. Grace and charity are both a must in Justification, not merely the forgiveness of sins. It also includes the willingness to accept that grace.

[quote] or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God;[/quote]This part is self explanitory. Grace is not merely God's favor, but a real and effective change in our souls.

I am at a loss as to what you meant to gain by posting this. This canon does not speak to works, but rather eludiates Justification in terms of grace and sanctification. We cannot justify ourselves, only Christ can do this, albeit we must have an earnest cooperation with that Grace given to us.

Concerning this[quote]Christians still reject your notion that you can go to hell for a single mortal sin that you're living in or that God will judge you for where you happen to be when you die. It's all about the direction of your life, not a technicality if you happen to have a mortal or grave if you will sin.[/quote]I would simply point back to the nature of mortal sin. Mortal sin is an act or a choice where you effectively choose against God with a hardness of heart. It is not God judging you here, it is you rejecting God and in effect, choosing something above God, namely Hell. Mortal sin is an act takes on such gravity that you have excluded yourself from God and rejected God's grace. God does not condemn you to Hell, you have by your choice against God. Your statement about the direction of life smacks of "fundamental option" theology. This is where your individual acts and choices have no bearing on your ultimate destination, it is your overall direction that determines this. It is like taking the average of your actions.

I hope this has helped and look forward to hearing from you again. As I said, I will not be on phatmass much outside of this thread, but I will track this topic.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Paphnutius

[Paphnutius]

[quote] I found this however that would lead one to believe that the works are part of the picture[/quote]I almost forgot to comment on the above.

Yes works are a apart of the picture, a vital part. Works are our response and cooperation in faith with the grace of Justification. They enable us to walk the path of sanctification and bring us closer to God. Works do not sum up Justification, nor does faith. They compliment each other and must both be in harmony for faith without works is dead. A faith that is dead cannot be used to bring about Justification in someone. We are saved [b]by [/b]grace [b]through[/b] our faith which is [b]completed[/b] in works.

[MichaelFilo]

Mortal sin isn't a technicality, it's a redirection of wher eyou are headed, since by it's very nature, it is a sin that is deadly, removing us from the road of life to the less than desired other option.

God bless,
Mikey

[jesussaves]

I do realize that I had to interpret what I did into the passage. The passage that you choose to cite does better illustrate an interpretation more like mine and like protestants who interpret James' works passage to mean that we must have works, but works do not justify.

But that said, while you almost had me convinced, I find issue with this that you wrote
[quote]Here the Church wishes to clarify that simply because one's sins are forgiven does not mean that one is Justified. It is a real part of Justification, but not exhaustive of the process. Those that believe, "I am forgiven of my sins I am going to heaven," neglect the sanctification aspect of Justification. The inner man must also be renewed and sanctified for Justification to be complete. [/quote]

I believe that if you are forgiven, you are going to heaven. I agree that works are necessary and that it is wrong to forget about sanctification but

I disagree that works are part of justification, if you believe this sort of justification to be necessary for heaven. If you think the works are part of justification in that to truly be "justified" in a more general sense, which includes a sense that does not exclude heaven, then I agree with you,

As it is, you are essentially saying that being forgiven does not earn heaven. You have to do good works to earn justification, while maybe not technically the forgiveness of sins. The good news of the gosple is that we are forgiven if we believe. You have found a way to bypass forgiveness, such that one still has to earn heaven (and I might argue forgivenness of sins despite what you say), and are essentially destroying what is good about the good news.

By heaven I mean living with God, despite your perpetual sinning.

Edited April 18, 2006 by jesussaves

[ironmonk]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Apr 14 2006, 09:42 AM']I would like to make a couple notes on justificaiton as I've been taught by Catholics. This is especially for Pap, as we've had ongoing diaglouge on this and he can be very insightful. I've been taught that they believe that works do not justify with faith even with graced works, or that's been insinuated much, maybe the doctrine is left unclear as I've been taught. I found this however that would lead one to believe that the works are part of the picture.. graced works justify.
On a final note, even if you didn't believe in graced works and I am misunderstanding, Christians still reject your notion that you can go to hell for a single mortal sin that you're living in or that God will judge you for where you happen to be when you die. It's all about the direction of your life, not a technicality if you happen to have a mortal or grave if you will sin.
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The canon is correct.

The bible clearly shows the above canon.

We are able to go to Heaven because Christ died for us.

Christ dying for us does not justify us going to Heaven. We must love God to go to Heaven.

Justification means the reason that justifies why we can do something.

Christ's dying on the cross opened the door to Heaven. We can reject this gift from God or we can accept it.

If we choose to love material things or sin greater than our love for God, then we will not go to Heaven.

Justification and salvation are two different things.


[b]Romans 3:3 [/b]
What if some were unfaithful? Will their infidelity nullify the fidelity of God?
[b]4 [/b]Of course not! God must be true, though every human being is a liar, 2 as it is written: "That you may be justified in your words, and conquer when you are judged."
...
[b]24 [/b]They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,

[b]James 2:20 [/b]
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
[b]21 [/b]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[b]22 [/b]You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.


Many many more bible verses....
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html[/url]



God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Apr 18 2006, 02:14 PM']I disagree that works are part of justification, if you believe this sort of justification to be necessary for heaven. If you think the works are part of justification in that to truly be "justified" in a more general sense, which includes a sense that does not exclude heaven, then I agree with you,
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Maybe you do not understand the word "justification".

We will be judged on our works... Judged = Justification = What we are judged on.

We will be repaid according to our conduct... our conduct is works.


[b]St. Matt 16:27 [/b][color=red]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. [/color]

[b]St. Matt 25:45[/b] [color=red]He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' [/color]
[b]46 [/b][color=red]And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." [/color]

[b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

[b]St. Matt 10:22 [/b]
[color=red] You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. [/color]

To endure is a work.

[b]St. Matt 24:13 [/b]
[color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.[/color]

[b]St. John 3:19 [/b]
[color=red]And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. [/color]
[b]21 [/b][color=red]But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God[/color].


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Apr 18 2006, 03:14 PM']I do realize that I had to interpret what I did into the passage. The passage that you choose to cite does better illustrate an interpretation more like mine and like protestants who interpret James' works passage to mean that we must have works, but works do not justify.

But that said, while you almost had me convinced, I find issue with this that you wrote
I believe that if you are forgiven, you are going to heaven. I agree that works are necessary and that it is wrong to forget about sanctification but

I disagree that works are part of justification, if you believe this sort of justification to be necessary for heaven. If you think the works are part of justification in that to truly be "justified" in a more general sense, which includes a sense that does not exclude heaven, then I agree with you,

As it is, you are essentially saying that being forgiven does not earn heaven. You have to do good works to earn justification, while maybe not technically the forgiveness of sins. The good news of the gosple is that we are forgiven if we believe. You have found a way to bypass forgiveness, such that one still has to earn heaven (and I might argue forgivenness of sins despite what you say), and are essentially destroying what is good about the good news.

By heaven I mean living with God, despite your perpetual sinning.
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What is belief? Is it assent? Is it obedience? (Romans 1:5). Salvation is an entirely complex issue. Catholics affirm John 3:16. And James 2:24

Figure out what this means: We are not saved by faith alone. We are not saved by faith and works. We are saved by faith.

When you figure it out, you will be Catholic, holding steadfast to the "faith" of the aposltes, holding steadfast to the Church founded by Christ.

[Brother Adam]

It is interesting isn't? How simple it seems at first. When we pick up our Americanized modern translations in the culture we are used to. We read a sentence in scripture, take it at its face value and think we are able to trump 2000 years of Christian history. That we suddenly "know". Know better than everyone else. It looks deceptively simple at first. "believe", have "faith in Jesus". It is deceptive because it is that simple, and yet in its simplicity we try to be American minimilists. Try to take it down to the lowest common denominator, make belief and faith equal "assent". Yet, such is thrown in the face of what millions of Christians have died for, what Jesus died for. It is deceptive because of how simple it appears and is, and yet, like God, who is finally and ultimately "simple" is far more complex than anything, rather anyone, we could ever figure out. If you think you have God "all figured out" you are a heretic. If you think you have God's saving power, soteriology, salvation, all figured out, I claim you are also probably a heretic, even if only materially. The Church has been pondering it through thousands of years of study, prayer, and grace. I don't think the instant microwavable theology American Protestant theology is ultimately going to 'cut it'.

[Paphnutius]

[quote]I believe that if you are forgiven, you are going to heaven. I agree that works are necessary and that it is wrong to forget about sanctification but [/quote]I am glad that we agree.

[quote]I disagree that works are part of justification, if you believe this sort of justification to be necessary for heaven. If you think the works are part of justification in that to truly be "justified" in a more general sense, which includes a sense that does not exclude heaven, then I agree with you, [/quote] Works are a part of Justification in the sense that they are our cooperation with grace and our assent in faith to God.

[quote]As it is, you are essentially saying that being forgiven does not earn heaven. You have to do good works to earn justification, while maybe not technically the forgiveness of sins. The good news of the gosple is that we are forgiven if we believe. You have found a way to bypass forgiveness, such that one still has to earn heaven (and I might argue forgivenness of sins despite what you say), and are essentially destroying what is good about the good news.[/quote]Would you agree that one must cooperate with grace and the process? Please show me that to believe equates forgiveness, because even the demons believe. Also, good works do not earn Justification, but are a part of the process. Good works' role is to complete our faith.

[quote]By heaven I mean living with God, despite your perpetual sinning.[/quote]Here you have thrown me for a loop. Do you mean that we continue to sin in heaven? I hope that I have misread you.

[Paphnutius]

I also missed a vital part.

The Church was stating that it was wrong to say that only the forgiveness is necessary without grace or renewal of the inner man (charity). It does not down play forgiveness, but rather states that grace and renewal are both necessary for Justification.