In High School- Live at the Convent?

[Domine ut Videam]

Alice Mary,

I am VERY, heartily sorry, if you took offense at what i said. I no way, shape or form meant to offend you at all. That was the farthest thing from my intentions. I was merely curious as to why you felt the way you did and wanted to find out why. I am sorry if you took it the wrong way. I guess i tend to get a bit defensive on this topic because see......it brings a lot of sorrow into my heart. I am 16 years old. And i have been discerning for the past three years a vocation to the religious life. I have become certain (as certain as one can ever be) that this is what God is calling me to be. I feel that God is calling me to enter out of HS.....and well; many people have the same viewpoint that you do, and they can't see how God can call people at my age or younger. So when I meet people that carry this viewpoint i tend to want to show them the beauty of the joy that i feel and the vocation that God has graced me with. But it is one of my weaknesses is that i am very hard-headed and i sound as though i am blocking out the other viewpoint....

so i am very sorry. Please forgive me....i did not intend to come across the way I did.

-Yours in Christ
Lauren

[benedictaj]

[quote name='stlmom' date='Apr 14 2006, 08:29 AM']Having lived as an aspirant student like this many years ago, as I look back on my experience, I have to agree with Alicemary.  The order I lived with was a teaching community, and an estimated 3/4 of our sisters entered from the high school aspirancy.  During the days of re-examining religious life, unfortunately, many of the sisters who were the first to leave were in the aspirants group. Many believed they didn't have the sufficient maturity to make a life altering decision at 14-15.
With  very good reason, most orders now have a minimum age of 18-19.  The adolescent brain, though full of zeal and good intentions, is still not yet fully mature. Who you are at 15 is not who you will be at 21.
Even the Amish delay commitment of their youth to their communities until the late teens and early twenties in recognition of the inconsistency of that stage of life.
I am not saying that it can't be the way for a few young women to begin to explore religious life, but  I doubt that you will see very many orders resurrecting this practice.
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And, I'm sure I read that the ablity to discernment, in its fullness, is not entirely developed until one turns sixteen. So, I'm just saying that if one makes a life changing decision before that age.....one doesn't have the [i]full[/i] ability to discern whether the decision is correct.

Also, one doesn't have the 'big picture' perspective developed [i]fully[/i] until around the age of 24. Meaning, the ability to make a choice, while having a good understanding of the future consequences and outcomes.

Now, I'm not saying that everyone under sixteen can't discern decisions properly, and I'm not saying that everyone under 24 can't always see the bigger picture, with all the future options and consequences thought of.

But, the thing is, these numbers, have a lot of truth in them. I know there have been saints like the beautiful St Therese of the Child Jesus, but not everyone is like that. I do not a make rules for the exception. - that is when problems can come up. I fully understand that some girls are called at a young age,. By the time I was fourteen, I knew I was meant to give my life to God, in consecrated life. : I actually wanted to leave here, and go that school that Regnum Christi runs....my parents, naturally refused. I think that the argument some people use for college, should be used here.

I do not think that people should "get life experience" over the age of 18, if they know where they are called, and the community feels the same way. But, under 18, I think that parents deserve a say, and also, how much more beautiful is it when things are done out of self motivation! I find it a lot more impressive and inspiring if a 14 year old girl or boy decides to pray parts of the Office each day - without being part of such an environment......if you get what I mean?

If God is calling a 14-17 year old girl or boy, the call is going to stay there...I doubt that the vocation would be 'lost.' Why would our Lord put the desire in someones heart at an early age? maybe its for growth and maturity? maybe its to give the family time to adjust? maybe its letting the one called, deepen their prayer life? maybe its to help them learn self discipline? who knows!

Some people are called at any early age, but I'm not convinced that high schools for discerners are necessarily right. That being said, this house run by the Martyrs does sound fairly good, as they go to a local Catholic school, and can participate in the usual high school activities. I don't think this is a bad idea, as such, it's just I think they shoudldn't become the usual thing to do.....

(btw, as for entering religious life or getting married, I think the best age is 19-24.....but I know my view is unpopular. )

[ruso]

[quote name='memtherose' date='Apr 15 2006, 01:40 AM']And, I'm sure I read that the ablity to discernment, in its fullness, is not entirely developed until one turns sixteen. So, I'm just saying that if one makes a life changing decision before that age.....one doesn't have the [i]full[/i] ability to discern whether the decision is correct.

Also, one doesn't have the 'big picture' perspective developed [i]fully[/i] until around the age of 24. Meaning, the ability to make a choice, while having a good understanding of the future consequences and outcomes.

Now, I'm not saying that everyone under sixteen can't discern decisions properly, and I'm not saying that everyone under 24 can't always see the bigger picture, with all the future options and consequences thought of.

But, the thing is, these numbers, have a  lot of truth in them. I know there have been saints like the beautiful St Therese of the Child Jesus, but not everyone is like that. I do not a make rules for the exception. - that is when problems can come up. I fully understand that some girls are called at a young age,. By the time I was fourteen, I knew I was meant to give my life to God, in consecrated life.  :  I actually wanted to leave here, and go that school that Regnum Christi runs....my parents, naturally refused. I think that the argument some people use for college, should be used here.

I do not think that people should "get life experience" over the age of 18, if they know where they are called, and the community feels the same way. But, under 18, I think that parents deserve a say, and also, how much more beautiful is it when things are done out of self motivation! I find it a lot more impressive and inspiring if a 14 year old girl or boy decides to pray parts of the Office each day - without being part of such an environment......if you get what I mean?

If God is calling a 14-17 year old girl or boy, the call is going to stay there...I doubt that the vocation would be 'lost.'  Why would our Lord put the desire in someones heart at an early age? maybe its for growth and maturity? maybe its to give the family time to adjust? maybe its letting the one called, deepen their prayer life? maybe its to help them learn self discipline? who knows! 

Some people are called at any early age, but I'm not convinced that high schools for discerners are necessarily right. That being said, this house run by the Martyrs does sound fairly good, as they go to a local Catholic school, and can participate in the usual high school activities. I don't think this is a bad idea, as such, it's just I think they shoudldn't become the usual thing to do.....

(btw, as for entering religious life or getting married, I think the best age is 19-24.....but I know my view is unpopular. )
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I write the admission letter to a well-known religious institute with 14 years, they insist say to me that to tapeworm vocation, like i want not to give the back him to God, request the admission.
Nevertheless when the finishing the high school I did not want to be united to them,although it does not leave them until the 22. Today (have 34 years), I have not pardoned the manipulation that has holds from14 until it leaves.
The discerniment of this Sisters, is not bad idea whenever one treats of discerniment only, and the freedom of each one is respected, until now i don't read nothing negative of them.
Nevertheless there are other sisters, in several countries of Sudamerica that they have children from the 12 years, without hardly influence of the world, always dressed in uniform and taking an almost monastic life.
Is necessary to know the world before making a decision like entering to the religious life.
I include the criticize of Alicemary, when many sisters entered before to even finish the high school, a program of this type can remember those times, even today congregations exist that badly make a use of this.

Edited April 15, 2006 by ruso

[HisChild]

Ruso, I'm not sure what you are saying.

'pardon the manipulation that holds from 14 until it leaves'? Could you clarify what you mean?

[HisChild]

There is a pic that one of the regulators has that shows how the thread is going wayyy of topic. I believe, based on what I've read since the thread was first introduced, it's going there, and quickly.

First, let's look at Canon Law which states that a woman (or man) cannot be validly accepted into the novitiate who has not completed their 17th yr. Meaning they have to at least be 18. So, if someone were to go to any of these schools, they are only, from what I've leaned, come and see situations, albeit for a longer period of time. And, as has also been pointed out, she is not only free to leave at any one time, but also if she does want to go on discernment like trips, the sisters take them to various communities to get a larger exposure. (It's absolutely not the same as communitiy situations in the past where the sole goal was to mold young girls into nuns in their order.)

God calls us all at different times. If He is calling a young woman, for instance, to the religious life, and He feels she has sufficient maturity to discern this call at age 16, He's not going to wait until she's 18 to invite her, simply because of the rules or opinions of man. I'm not saying that He would want her to go against canon law. That's not what I'm saying. But I am saying that it is possible for Him to invite her to start thinking about it, to start discerning, so that, when she turns 18, she is able to make that decision.

While I understand what some are saying about maturity, that is not to say He doesn't at least make His invitation known beforehand. There are many saints (I only use them as examples because those are the holy examples we know of) who have known they were called to religious life at a young age and some who petitioned to enter at an early age. To say that God wouldn't call a woman or girl (or boy for that matter) to religious life earlier is putting a lot of limits on Him. Limits that don't exist.

For those who have had similar experiences of living a, sort of, religious life experience while younger, I mean you no unkindness. But please allow me to point out, that while that situation did not work for you, it does not mean it wouldn't work out for someone else, in a similar situation.

"All that glitters is not gold." Many here are stating that they should experience more of the world. Yes, there is a need for the young discerner to be well rounded. But, the 'world' in all its finery, also has many trappings and many deceits. It is not only a 'good place to learn to be well rounded'. (That also includes most colleges.)

There are, in my opninion, calls that have been 'lost', for lack of a better word. I don't believe that God is calling less women today than He did say, even 25 years ago. I just believe less are saying 'yes', due to many 'opportunities' in the world.

This thread originally started, rather innocently enough, to share with younger discerners that there were opportunities out there for young women who want to start their discernment early. These are good, faithful communities who aren't trying to entrap or snare girls into making a decision for religious life before they knew what hit them. These communities, in their wisdom, I'm sure, would share with the girl, were they to see that the girl didn't have a vocation to their community, just as they would were she, say. . .21. I believe, this thread has WAY veered off the original informational post. (And I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to lock this topic.)

In the end, those young discerners out there, we. . .and by saying 'we', I mean those of us who are older and discerning, parents of discerners, or those who have discerned that they are not called to the religious life (in short, all who post here) ... are not a substitute for a good and holy spiritual director, who can help you make that decision. We just post our own opinions, which have stemmed from our own experience. In the end, you should listen, not to us, but to your spiritual director, who is more wise and who is suited for that purpose.

God bless you in your discernment, younger discerner, and may He give you the grace to listen to, and follow His Holy Will.

[shortnun]

Thank you Denise for your well thought out response.

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Apr 15 2006, 10:21 AM']To say that God wouldn't call a woman or girl (or boy for that matter) to religious life earlier is putting a lot of limits on Him. Limits that don't exist.
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This is such a helpful reminder. In/with God there are no limits. I am reminded of a comment made by a Carmelite DCJ novice who said that while she knew God was calling her to Carmel at the age 16 she had to wait until she was 18 to enter. And those two years were not spend merely biting her nails and pouting. Those two years were not spend waiting around. Rather she asked God in prayer "What is it that you want from me in these two years?" And by bring that question to prayer she saw parts of herself (and the Kingdom of God) that needed to be tilled and worked on until she entered.

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Apr 15 2006, 10:21 AM']There are, in my opninion, calls that have been 'lost', for lack of a better word.  I don't believe that God is calling less women today than He did say, even 25 years ago. I just believe less are saying 'yes', due to many 'opportunities' in the world.
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I have often wondered about this phenomenon as well, and read articles that say the same sort of thing you are Denise: God is still calling, but we're really not listening. But I must also say that is it our work as the body of Christ to cultivate "listening ears" within the world, not to shun people away from it so they can hear better. There are so many "opportunities" in the world today that can bring us closer to the heart of Christ. (Sorry, I think that was a little bit of a soapbox there, and I just took what you said a little too far. Mea culpa.)

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Apr 15 2006, 10:21 AM']In the end, those young discerners out there, we. . .and by saying 'we', I mean those of us who are older and discerning, parents of discerners, or those who have discerned that they are not called to the religious life (in short, all who post here) ... are not a substitute for a good and holy spiritual director, who can help you make that decision.  We just post our own opinions, which have stemmed from our own experience.  In the end, you should listen, not to us, but to your spiritual director, who is more wise and who is suited for that purpose.
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Hmmmmmmmm I may have to disagree here... but only slightly. See, I think this forum is a valuable tool for all discerners, and for those who aren't discerning! We must remember, of course, that this is the internet and looks aren't always what they appear to be. In other words, a few little words on a screen can't possibly tell us one's entire personality or disposition. [i]But we have fostered a sense of community ("cyber community") through our common belief in our Triune God and our passion for religious vocations to the priesthood and religious life. [/i] Sharing of our experiences with others is how we pass on our faith. And, particularly in the realm of vocations, there often seems to be a lack of this sharing in places of the world. So I rejoice and am thankful at the sharing that is done here. I believe that there is part of the Truth in all that we post. That is what is means to be Church.

[i]That having been said[/i]..... all ideas/opinions/experiences posted here should be taken with a grain of salt. We are not know-it-alls. And neither is your spiritual director. But the personal, intimate, face-to-face relationship that comes between a director and a directee is notably more valuable than just reading the advice here. [b]The two must be balanced.[/b]

God's abundant blessings to you all, particularly those preparing to travel, as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Christ, who is LORD.

[alicemary]

I am not so sure, why in this forum, people get so testy so easily. We are permitted to offer an opinion aren't we? Maybe it goes against the flow, but I am not a 15 year old, I am a mature women who loves her faith and certainly loves religious life. I am a product of my time, Vatican ll, can't help that.
Why can't we talk about things? Why is only the opinion of a 16 year old all that counts? Denise you will be entering the convent in a few days, and I certainly am praying for you. But I certainly don't understand how this is off topic when it is the topic?
I hope that I encourage people all the time to seek out their destiny in life, be it to religious life, married or single life, a career whatever fulfills them. but I do not hero worship nuns. And when I think something is a bad idea I certainly will offer my opinion.
If my opinion is not wanted, believe me, I can go elsewhere. It is not my intention to rock any boats, just to listen and encourage.

[shortnun]

[quote name='alicemary' date='Apr 15 2006, 11:06 AM']I am not so sure, why in this forum, people get so testy so easily. We are permitted to offer an opinion aren't we? Maybe it goes against the flow, but I am not a 15 year old, I am a mature women who loves her faith and certainly loves religious life. I am a product of my time, Vatican ll, can't help that.
Why can't we talk about things? Why is only the opinion of a 16 year old all that counts? Denise you will be entering the convent in a few days, and I certainly am praying for you. But I certainly don't understand how this is off topic when it is the topic?
I hope that I encourage people all the time to seek out their destiny in life, be it to religious life, married or single life, a career whatever fulfills them. but I do not hero worship nuns. And when I think something is a bad idea I certainly will offer my opinion.
If my opinion is not wanted, believe me, I can go elsewhere. It is not my intention to rock any boats, just to listen and encourage.
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Thank you for your posts, I hope to see them continue. Your voice is valuable to these boards.

[HisChild]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 15 2006, 10:06 AM']I may have to disagree here... but only slightly. See, I think this forum is a valuable tool for all discerners, and for those who aren't discerning! We must remember, of course, that this is the internet and looks aren't always what they appear to be. In other words, a few little words on a screen can't possibly tell us one's entire personality or disposition. [i]But we have fostered a sense of community ("cyber community") through our common belief in our Triune God and our passion for religious vocations to the priesthood and religious life. [/i] Sharing of our experiences with others is how we pass on our faith. And, particularly in the realm of vocations, there often seems to be a lack of this sharing in places of the world. So I rejoice and am thankful at the sharing that is done here. I believe that there is part of the Truth in all that we post. That is what is means to be Church.

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What I posted is that I don't think our opinions should supercede that of a spiritual director. If he/she is saying one thing and we are giving a melange of opinions as well, he is the one who knows the discerner face to face, not us (or, rarely, us). While our sharing of our own experiences fosters community and is good to hear about others' journey toward holiness, I don't think we have the experience to spiritually direct another.

[quote name='alicemary' date='Apr 15 2006, 10:06 AM']I am not so sure, why in this forum, people get so testy so easily. We are permitted to offer an opinion aren't we? Maybe it goes against the flow, but I am not a 15 year old, I am a mature women who loves her faith and certainly loves religious life. I am a product of my time, Vatican ll, can't help that.
Why can't we talk about things? Why is only the opinion of a 16 year old all that counts? Denise you will be entering the convent in a few days, and I certainly am praying for you. But I certainly don't understand how this is off topic when it is the topic?
I hope that I encourage people all the time to seek out their destiny in life, be it to religious life, married or single life, a career whatever fulfills them. but I do not hero worship nuns. And when I think something is a bad idea I certainly will offer my opinion.
If my opinion is not wanted, believe me, I can go elsewhere. It is not my intention to rock any boats, just to listen and encourage.
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alicemary, mea culpa if you feel I am being testy, or where, in the thread you feel I am doing so. I actually mentioned that I meant no disrespect towards you or others who disagree with the orginal post of this opportunity for young women who can discern their vocation. And yet, it is true that while it may not have been a good experience for some, in other situations, doesn't make this a bad experience for ALL those who choose to do so. (And, to quote your post, by doing so, does not create 'hero worship' of nuns. That's a bit. . .well, reaching.)

No one is saying ONLY the opinion of a 16 year old counts. However, his or her opinion DOES count. I just didn't feel that some of the posts were supporting their desires or their interests or even their opinions, and since it's truly something that would directly involve them, they should have a voice, and one that matters. I certainly don't want some young woman to come along, read this thread later, and think, 'gee, He certainly couldn't be calling me to religious life, I'm 'too young'.' He calls when He calls.

I'm wondering how my entrance into religious life was brought up into your post. I'm not sure what it has to do with this topic? It doesn't follow either your words before (as I am not 16) nor your words after (as that's not on the topic either). I apologize but you've confused me there. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take the comment in an uncharitable fashion or not. Because what I read what 'you're entering religious life, but. . . .'

If you read the first post, the topic of the thread was merely to inform others of this opportunity. That's why I'm stating that a debate is 'off topic'. It was a post made in charity, and that's not where the thread has gone.


Pax Christi.

[alicemary]

I was wishing you luck on your journey into the cloister that is all. I do not post all that often and am leaving on vacation tommorrow and will not get the opportunity to wish you well. I will not be online for a week. I was merely saying goodbye and God speed to you.

[shortnun]

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Apr 15 2006, 12:15 PM'][b]What I posted is that I don't think our opinions should supercede that of a spiritual director. [/b] If he/she is saying one thing and we are giving a melange of opinions as well, he is the one who knows the discerner face to face, not us (or, rarely, us).    While our sharing of our own experiences fosters community and is good to hear about others' journey toward holiness, I don't think we have the experience to spiritually direct another.
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[Emphasis mine] We're in complete agreement.

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Apr 15 2006, 12:15 PM']If you read the first post, the topic of the thread was merely to inform others of this opportunity.  That's why I'm stating that a debate is 'off topic'.  It was a post made in charity, and that's not where the thread has gone.
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This has been a conversation, not a debate. I'm thankful to all who have taken the time to share their experiences and opinions.

[ruso]

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Apr 15 2006, 04:48 PM']Ruso, I'm not sure what you are saying.

'pardon the manipulation that holds from 14 until it leaves'?  Could you clarify what you mean?
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What I want to say is that when i was 14 years old, was manipulated to continue a vocation that I do not have, they were repeating me continuously that was what God wanted of me, when I left this institution with 22 years they threatened me with the eternal condemnation and repeating that i would not be happy (they were wrong).
what that I have not excused yet to them, as to be received so young and manipulate. After that one, I was 8 years without entering in a church.
That's why I understand what Alicemary says on young girls gather with a view to the religious life, although this program of the sisters of martyr St. George seems good.
Denise, I would like to know your opinion about this other with girls of 12 to 17-18 years when they happen to the postulancy, this in Spanish idiom.
[url="http://www.servidoras.org/documento.asp?titulo=Aspirantados&seccion=Casas+de+Formaci%F3n"]http://www.servidoras.org/documento.asp?ti...+de+Formaci%F3n[/url]
Look the images of aspirantados in Peru, Ecuador, Egipto and Argentina.
[url="http://www.servidoras.org/casas.asp"]http://www.servidoras.org/casas.asp[/url]

[Veritas]

+

Dear Ruso,

Wow. I am quite surprised by what you have said. I know and have studied with these sisters in Europe. They were all VERY HAPPY and JOYFUL TO BE SISTERS... I am inclined to believe that the pressure you were under is an isolated incident. Furthermore, please forgive me, but I also believe that allegations of such a serious nature, as a matter of prudence, must be taken with a "grain of salt". We do not want to defame the name of an entire community by the possible actions of one or a small group. Especially, as our identities as pm'ers must necessarily remain anonymous, this does give those of ill-intent (please realize this is a general statement, I do not intend to imply this to you) an opportunity for mischief. Thus, we must not give too much credence to the negative experiences of one another.

Blessings to you!

Veritas

Edited April 16, 2006 by Veritas

[ruso]

[quote name='Veritas' date='Apr 16 2006, 02:14 AM']+

Dear Ruso,

Wow. I am quite surprised by what you have said. I know and have studied with these sisters in Europe. They were all VERY HAPPY and JOYFUL TO BE SISTERS... I am inclined to believe that the pressure you were under is an isolated incident. Furthermore, please forgive me, but I also believe that allegations of such a serious nature, as a matter of prudence, must be taken with a "grain of salt". We do not want to defame the name of an entire community by the possible actions of one or a small group. Especially, as our identities as pm'ers must necessarily remain anonymous, this does give those of ill-intent (please realize this is a general statement, I do not intend to imply this to you) an opportunity for mischief. Thus, we must not give too much credence to the negative experiences of one another.


Veritas
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My negative experience was with the Opus Dei, continuing with the alone topic I have asked the opinion about the girls' revenue in an aspirantado from the 12 years, I know something to the Servants of the Lord and collaborate economically with them. His commitment with the in need ones and with the Church for my this one out of doubt.
I feel the confusion on the topic, also I doubt that the servants were admitting a man with them.
Thanks for the flowers.
Ruso

[benedictaj]

[quote name='PCPA2Be' date='Apr 16 2006, 06:15 AM']
No one is saying ONLY the opinion of a 16 year old counts.  However, his or her opinion DOES count.  I just didn't feel that some of the posts were supporting their desires or their interests or even their opinions, and since it's truly something that would directly involve them, they should have a voice, and one that matters.  I certainly don't want some young woman to come along, read this thread later, and think, 'gee, He certainly couldn't be calling me to religious life, I'm 'too young'.' He calls when He calls. 

[snip]
Pax Christi.
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Well, when I read a book about the vocation stories of nuns, when I was about ten or eleven, none of the sisters interviewed in the book had felt called to religious life early on, so I presumed then, that I wasn't simply because I felt the desire so early on. hehe, that has proved to be wrong.

I didn't mean to spark up a debate with my comments, I was just sharing my opinion, but perhaps it was too inflammatory. I apologise if it was.

Again, I must reiterate, I [b]understand[/b] that some girls are called early on in life, [i]I myself was/am!![/i] It is just, that in my opinion, these sorts of schools should be the exception, not the norm. Like AliceMary's experience, perhaps it was because it was common, that problems would occur.

Also, remember, I did want to attend such a school, but now, I am so glad that I didn't. I still had a Catholic education, in an all girls school, and I have somehow come out a stronger Catholic (maybe it was all the Protestants and atheists and pantheists I battled with )

But, it is interesting to see other opinions on this issue. For one, I didn't realise how strongly people felt about it all!! : :

God bless.