N/A Gone Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 This is from a huge forum I am on for sports, here is the posts. ------ [quote]None of the records of early Christians found include any reference of him as 'the Son of God' until about the year 160 A.D. The Gospel of John, the latest one written and only to make any reference to this view, was written at a time when the more gnostic view of Christ was first being challenged by by a new view; what we would now call Orthodox Christians. Gnosticism would, centuries later, be purged from the Christian world and depicted as a split from the original church, but all records support the opposite view. Prior to John/160 A.D., all references to Jesus are as of God's messenger and worker of his miracles. Discuss.[/quote] --- [quote]The Quran clearly states that Jesus is not the son of God, but just another prophet. So, that's exactly what I believe in.[/quote] --- more arguing about christology with human vs God and how the dna works. How can God be in human form ---- [quote]Its just not logical to believe that a human can be God. A God is all powerful and does not have weaknesses and needs/wants like humans do. Tell me what you make of this. A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow." (Mark, 4:3 A Weary "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6) A Groaning "God": "He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John, 11:33), "Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:3 A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept." (John, 11:35) A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:3 A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43) Now that seems like a human to me, not God. Also, Christians believe that Jesus died. Wouldnt that mean that a part of God died? How can a part of God die, that doesnt agree with the definition of God.[/quote] lets attack this strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Walker Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Christianity is close to being annihilated in Western culture... I don't think we can stop it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted April 12, 2006 Author Share Posted April 12, 2006 St. peter said to provide a defense. I want to have all the resources possible. I could make a quick response, but i want the value of wealth found here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Walker Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Hey, about your avatar: What is the image that appears after the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stbernardLT Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 The mistake is that they forget in Revelations Jesus calls hiself the alphs and omega, the beginning and the end, a title reserved for only God. The question about a piece of God diying is totally misled because that denies the resurrection, Christ is not dead but alive. He said he would raise the temple in three days. "God" didn't raise Him from the dead, but he did it himself therefore acting as God (who he most definitley is) What about the virgin birth, do they deny that which is found in the other gospels. If Jesus was conceive by the Holy Spirit he is divine by nature. Just like I am human in nature because both my parents are human, so Christ is not only human but divine in nature, (this defenitely concludes He is not only the Son of Mary in His human nature but the son of God in His divine nature. Also remember divinity nevers dies as His human nature did for a time; therefore His person in the trinity has no beginning because it is divine, declaring Him as God. What about all the scriptures where Christ referrs to Himself as "I AM" The title reserved for only God in the old testament. What about Christ being called the firstborn, not implying that He didn't eist at one time but implying that no one procedes Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stbernardLT Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 The mistake is that they forget in Revelations Jesus calls hiself the alphs and omega, the beginning and the end, a title reserved for only God. The question about a piece of God diying is totally misled because that denies the resurrection, Christ is not dead but alive. He said he would raise the temple in three days. "God" didn't raise Him from the dead, but he did it himself therefore acting as God (who he most definitley is) What about the virgin birth, do they deny that which is found in the other gospels. If Jesus was conceive by the Holy Spirit he is divine by nature. Just like I am human in nature because both my parents are human, so Christ is not only human but divine in nature, (this defenitely concludes He is not only the Son of Mary in His human nature but the son of God in His divine nature. Also remember divinity nevers dies as His human nature did for a time; therefore His person in the trinity has no beginning because it is divine, declaring Him as God. What about all the scriptures where Christ referrs to Himself as "I AM" The title reserved for only God in the old testament. Matthew 14:33 "Those in the boat did homage to Him saying, "TRULY YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD." (this isn't John talking) The transfiguration is found in more than one Gospel and the Father calls Jesus His son. As far as Jesus having weaknesses this came from Him having a human nature. This is why His message is one of humilty. God became man and suffered. Jesus shouldn't get sleepy, then why did God take the seventh day to rest. I suggest the person you are debating with learn some old testament scripture and he would God is given some very human attributes. What about Christ being called the firstborn, not implying that He didn't exist at one time but implying that no one procedes Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 (edited) The claim that prior to mid way through the 2nd century nobody claims Jesus was the Son of God is absolutely ridiculous. How can anyone who has read any of the New Testament make that claim? I cant even recall if there is one New Testament author who doesn't make mention of Jesus being the Son of God? I mean we can start quoting if its absolutely neccessary but that'd take up far too much space. Then there are the letters of the Apostolic Fathers like St Ignatius of Antioch and the Didache which usually either start or end with a salutation in the name of Jesus as Son of God. Check out New Advent's [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/"]Fathers of the Church[/url] section to proof text from figures like St Clement of Rome and others... As for the 'sleepy God' critique once again profound ignorance of Christian doctrine is evident which can likewise be cured by referring to the writings of the Fathers. Use [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3604028.htm"]Letter 28 'The Tome'[/url] and [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3604124.htm"]Letter 124[/url] of Pope St Leo' the Great to enlighten your opposition. Edited April 12, 2006 by Myles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulton Sheen Warrior Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 +JMJ+ [quote]Christianity is close to being annihilated in Western culture... I don't think we can stop it now.[/quote] Don't lose heart, brother. "The gates of Hell shall [i]not [/i]prevail against it!" Pax Christi. Fulton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted April 12, 2006 Share Posted April 12, 2006 Let me direct you to an [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=33775&hl="]entire thread devoted to this topic here:[/url] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=33775&hl="]The Divinity of Christ: Scriptures and Church Fathers.[/url] Here are some good articles on this topic: [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203frs.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203frs.asp[/url] [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Chirst.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Chirst.asp[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 sweet...some good ol patristics for breakfast...I love being a phatty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 [quote]None of the records of early Christians found include any reference of him as 'the Son of God' until about the year 160 A.D. The Gospel of John, the latest one written and only to make any reference to this view, was written at a time when the more gnostic view of Christ was first being challenged by by a new view; what we would now call Orthodox Christians. Gnosticism would, centuries later, be purged from the Christian world and depicted as a split from the original church, but all records support the opposite view. Prior to John/160 A.D., all references to Jesus are as of God's messenger and worker of his miracles. [/quote] This person shows major ignorance of Scriptures and/or dishonesty. First of all, there exist fragments of the Gospel of John dating to the early second century, which show that the original was likely written in the late first century, probably by the Apostle John himself (or as dictated to his disciples) in the late first century. And there are claims of Christ's divinity in the other four Gospels as well. [url="http://web.archive.org/web/20040202005608/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ98.HTM"]Go here[/url] for [url="http://web.archive.org/web/20040202005608/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ98.HTM"]LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF SCRIPTURAL CLAIMS, direct and implied, of Christ's divinity![/url] Read the article - there is simply far too much to quote here! Christ claimed equality with God, was literally His Son, was called by God the Father, "My Beloved Son," forgave sins in His own name, and was recognized as the Son of God by the demons. All four Gospels record that at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Christ claimed equality with God, and was sentenced to death for blasphemy. 3) MARK 14:61-62 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? (62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. {cf. Mt 26:63-65, Lk 22:67-71} [quote]The Quran clearly states that Jesus is not the son of God, but just another prophet. So, that's exactly what I believe in.[/quote] This is just silly. We are not Muslims, and so are not bound to the teachings of the non-Christian Quran, which was written over 600 years after Christ. The Church is 600 years older than Islam, and thus is much more reliable concerning the truth about Christ. [quote]Its just not logical to believe that a human can be God. A God is all powerful and does not have weaknesses and needs/wants like humans do. Tell me what you make of this. A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow." (Mark, 4:3 A Weary "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6) A Groaning "God": "He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John, 11:33), "Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:3 A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept." (John, 11:35) A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:3 A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43) Now that seems like a human to me, not God. Also, Christians believe that Jesus died. Wouldnt that mean that a part of God died? How can a part of God die, that doesnt agree with the definition of God.[/quote] Jesus Christ has two natures, human and divine. He took on a human nature, and shared in our human weaknesses in order to save us, even undergoing death on the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted April 13, 2006 Author Share Posted April 13, 2006 socrates...I have not spoke to you much on this board, Im impressed My avatar goes like this eagle my car sarahs eye with verse from jars of clay "worlds apart" engagement pic trinity ut unum sint I was thinkin about puttin a business card..but decided not to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 Quite Simply the oldest fragment of the Gospel of John comes from the year 110 ad. It was found in Eqypt, which implies that it had time to circulate. The rest of the premises fall after that. IF you remind me later I will look up the name of the fragment, n.b. I learned about this from two different Catholic and Protestant Biblical publications. Also I recomend St. Athanasius' Christology concerning the human qualities of Christ. Interestingly there is a long tradition of weakness not being a imprefection, but indeed a prefection. (Think of St. Paul in my weakness He is strong, and the ability to recieve totally the Father and the Son and Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 wow socrates that website was incredible! props Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruso Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Desert Walker' date='Apr 12 2006, 08:48 PM']Christianity is close to being annihilated in Western culture... I don't think we can stop it now. [right][snapback]944975[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That never happened my friend. Mainly with as idiots arguments as these. Edited April 13, 2006 by ruso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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