Urgent But 911

[Kiddkapps]

Ok...Looking for all apologists and people whith some form of writing skills...your task is to answer this statement.

*Remember your goal isn't to bash or be "in your face" per se so do it with an apologist flare leave the "Yo momma" and "heretics" comments out of it.**

I don't believe in Catholicism because it's not Biblical.

OK Christ loving people....your mission...should you choose it...is to write a response to this from an apologetics perspective.

Keep in mind to discuss

*where did the Bible come from

*scriptural support for the Church

The due date is Tomorrow at 4pm EST --> I know it's short notice but it only has to be 1 1/2 pages long.

It's kinda urgent. But the winner will get a PRIZE FROM PHATMASS (seriously) and an opportunity to be posted in the infamous Squash the Bunkness Column!

Send to submit@phatmass.com

also post here if you are doing it.

*sorry CaF I'll explain what's going on when you log on. It's nothing bad. You'll see. :D

[musturde]

Can it rhyme?

[Pontifex]

I will leave this to my phatmass pham, but if you need my help than ask.

Peace,

Fr. P

[MC Just]

I'm doing something right now, I'll post it when I'm done.

[musturde]

how is it not biblical? If this is a person he must not know a thing about Cat-holic-ism

[musturde]

whos on ur avater Just?

[MC Just]

St. Charles Borromeo

Let me know, if there is anything you think I missed. I prayed for guidance before doing this.

Here is my Apologetic page. (Actually two pages, not 1 1/2)

It has been said over and over by many people that, the Catholic Church is not biblical. This is a loving and truthful response to those who claim such things. Catholics are deep into History and Tradition, which is very much supported by the Sacred Scriptures. History proves that the Bible came from the Catholic Church, it was writen by the first Catholics, and passed on and safeguarded by Catholic monks, in the year 393 A.D at the council of hippo, the Catholic Bishops chose which books (out of hundreds of books) would go into the cannon of scripture. In about 400 A.D at the Catholic council of Carthage, the Catholic Bishops put all the books together under one cover, the Old Testament(including duetorcanonicals) and the books of the new testament) and called it the Bible. First of all to lay the claim on whether or not the Catholic Church is biblical, the scriptures must be read in context and according to the whole of scripture, Old Testament and New. We must understand that The Church founded by Jesus must be a fulfillment of God’s true Religion, Judaism; that’s why it is very important to also know the Old Testament, and what the Jews believed. Our Blessed Lord was a Carpenter, he knew how to build and put things into place perfectly, he is also God and knew how to build his Kingdom. The Catholic Church thus teaches everything Jesus and his Blessed Apostles taught."But our Lord Himself said (John 3:5): 'Unless a man be born again of water (Baptism) and the Holy Ghost(Confirmation), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' Consequently it became necessary to baptize children, that, as in birth they incurred damnation through Adam so in a second birth they might obtain salvation through Christ. Moreover it was fitting that children should receive Baptism, in order that being reared from childhood in things pertaining to the Christian mode of life, they may the more easily persevere therein; according to Prov. 22:5: "A young man according to his way, even when he is old, he will not depart from it." - St. Thomas Aquinas ("Summa Theologica" 13th century A.D.) The biblical teaching of being born of water and the Holy Spirit is what the Catholic Church teaches. People are Baptized and they receive the Holy Spirit through laying on of Hands also known as “Sealed’ that is “Confirmed”-or confirmation” (Acts 19:5-6) (Eph. 1:13-) “were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit” This is to be born of Water and the Holy Spirit. Even in the Old Testament Holy Water was used to Purify and cleanse, and not by walking into a lake and being submerged either, this was by Sprinkling, which is also found in the Catholic Church, we have what is called “Asperges,” in which the Priest walks by the Faithful and sprinkles them with Holy Water, in fact Holy Water is mentioned by name in Numbers 5:17. it is used as a sign signifying our Baptism and the Promises we made to God. Numbers 8:7 God commands that they be “Sprinkled with the water of remission” Again this is all found in Catholicism and the Scriptures.

It has been said by some that the Scriptures are the Final Authority, but Catholic teaching, just as Scriptures tell us” (1 Tim 3:15) But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. When Jesus founded his church talking to Peter whose name most definitely translated from the original Aramaic text, is literally “Rock”. Jesus builds his church on rock and then goes on to give peter the Key’s to the Kingdom of Heaven, “whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven” This term binding and loosing is known by Jews as the Authority of the scribes and Pharisees, those who are mentioned in (Isiaiah 22: 19-23) this is their office, which is cut off from the old law and extended in the New. The Papacy is the same. We believe when “Jesus promised that the Gates of hell shall not prevail” he meant what he said, therefore we don’t worry about our Church becoming corrupt and falling. (Matt. 16:18; 18:18) - Jesus uses "ecclesia" only twice in the NT. This proves Jesus intended to build a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church. (Matthew 18:17-18) The Bishops (episcopoi) (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5) also called “Over Seer” Rule over Dioceses, they have their own communities and congregations, they appoint ordain and discipline priests (presbuteroi) (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15) who also forgive sins in Jesus name (John 20:21) (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."(James 5:14) Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful and deacons. (diakonoi) (Acts 6:1–6) Catholicism has all of this.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8-9 (ANF, Vol. I) 100 A.D.) See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people](Diocese) also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid . . . It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love feast. But that which seems good to him, is also well pleasing to God, that everything you do may be secure and valid.

As you can see so far the Catholic Church is biblical, and is known in the earliest times of Church history. It is God himself who puts the Catholic Bishops, Priests and Deacon in Place. (1 Cor. 12:28) Some have said Catholics disobey Jesus Command of “Call no man Father” Does not John call the Elders (Presbyters, Priests) “Fathers” in (1 John 2: 13-14)? (Acts 22:1) “My brothers and fathers” Hence Catholics call their Priests “fathers in faith” just as Paul does in the scriptures. Jesus was trying to let them know, not to confuse them between their Father in heaven and the earthly fathers.

Now on to the big one, you all know what this is. The Eucharist. (John 6: 23-53) Through out this verses, the greek text uses the word “phago” nine times. “phago” literally means “to eat” or “physically consume.” (John 6:54-58) He uses and even more literal verb, translated as “trogo” which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." 63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father." 66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the L-rd in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the L-rd . . .For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many are weak and ill, and some have died." (1Cor. 11.27-30) Catholics must confess their sins.

In the Scriptures, Old and New, Sin is separated into two degrees (hamartano (venial sins), and hamartema (Mortal sins) The Jews even believed this. If we are in mortal sin we are dirty and un-holy, we cannot receive the Eucharist (body and blood,of Christ)(The Todah offering/Christ body and Blood) in this state because it will kill us. (Same goes for Mary and the Immaculate conception) She could not have sin in her, because she would have died holding Christ in her womb)“We have lost much of our understanding about the things that are Kadosh (holy) and the things which are chol (common). Not only were people designated holy, like the Levitical priests that served the sanctuary, but also places and things. Some were so holy that to look at them could bring about death! (Num.4.20). To approach that which is holy in an unholy state is not allowed: "If any one of all your descendants throughout your generations approaches the holy things, which the people of Israel dedicate to the L-rd, while he has uncleanness, that person shall be cut off from My Presence: I AM YHVH." Lev.22.3 Or even touch it:” And when Aaron and his sons have finished covering the sanctuary and all the furnishings of the sanctuary, as the camp sets out, after that the sons of Kohath shall carry these, but they must not touch the holy things, lest they die." (Num.4.15) Can a mere symbol kill? Do symbols destroy the flesh? Was the Bread of Presence to be a mere symbol where only the priests were to eat of it (the exception was when David and his men who journeyed with him, ate the bread because there was no other food available and they did not defile themselves with women- (1Sam. 21.1-6). Only a spirit of the living G-d born out through His only Son in both body and blood are Holy and to approach the altar of the G-d Most High in an evil state is to profane His Holy Name. "For from the rising of the sun to its setting My Name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to My Name, and a pure offering; for My Name is great among the nations, says the L-rd of hosts. But you profane it when you say that the L-rd's table is polluted, and the food for it may be despised." (Mal.1.11-12). As for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, ancient Jewish rabbi’s predicted that Jesus would abolish all the sacrifices and offerings except for one called “The Todah” offering” That is The Thanksgiving Offering/sacrifice under the form of bread and wine. Thanksgiving in Greek is “Eucharistia” The Eucharist. Melchizedek in (Genesis 14:18)-this Priest pre-figured Christ, The Todah offering/sacrifice is biblical and is fulfilled by the Catholic Church.

Last but not least Purgatory According to Jewish sages, this is a period of spiritual punishment and/or purification for a period of up to 12 months after death called Gehinnom (in Yiddish it's Gehenna). However, Jesus clearly states there is not a "set" limit for all, but we set our own limits. Yet, if Calvary cleansed us of our sins, what is there left to pay (Protestant argument)? We believe the full text of Matthew helps clarify this as we read when Jesus is condemning when we judge our brother: "You have heard that it was said to men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'you fool!' shall be liable to Gehenna. So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, then come and offer your gift. Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put into prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny." Matt.5.21-26

Edited December 23, 2003 by MC Just

[MC Just]

oops I forgot one thing and thats where the bible came from, sorry lemme fix that.

[Kiddkapps]

St. Charles Borromeo

Let me know, if there is anything you think I missed. I prayed for guidance before doing this.

Here is my Apologetic page. (Actually two pages, not 1 1/2)

It has been said over and over by many people that, the Catholic Church is not biblical. This is a loving and truthful response to those who claim such things. Catholics are deep into History and Tradition, which is very much supported by the Sacred Scriptures. First of all to lay the claim on whether or not the Catholic Church is biblical, the scriptures must be read in context and according to the whole of scripture, Old Testament and New. We must understand that The Church founded by Jesus must be a fulfillment of God’s true Religion, Judaism; that’s why it is very important to also know the Old Testament, and what the Jews believed. Our Blessed Lord was a Carpenter, he knew how to build and put things into place perfectly, he is also God and knew how to build his Kingdom. The Catholic Church thus teaches everything Jesus and his Blessed Apostles taught."But our Lord Himself said (John 3:5): 'Unless a man be born again of water (Baptism) and the Holy Ghost(Confirmation), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' Consequently it became necessary to baptize children, that, as in birth they incurred damnation through Adam so in a second birth they might obtain salvation through Christ. Moreover it was fitting that children should receive Baptism, in order that being reared from childhood in things pertaining to the Christian mode of life, they may the more easily persevere therein; according to Prov. 22:5: "A young man according to his way, even when he is old, he will not depart from it." - St. Thomas Aquinas ("Summa Theologica" 13th century A.D.) The biblical teaching of being born of water and the Holy Spirit is what the Catholic Church teaches. People are Baptized and they receive the Holy Spirit through laying on of Hands also known as “Sealed’ that is “Confirmed”-or confirmation” (Acts 19:5-6) (Eph. 1:13-) “were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit” This is to be born of Water and the Holy Spirit. Even in the Old Testament Holy Water was used to Purify and cleanse, and not by walking into a lake and being submerged either, this was by Sprinkling, which is also found in the Catholic Church, we have what is called “Asperges,” in which the Priest walks by the Faithful and sprinkles them with Holy Water, in fact Holy Water is mentioned by name in Numbers 5:17. it is used as a sign signifying our Baptism and the Promises we made to God. Numbers 8:7 God commands that they be “Sprinkled with the water of remission” Again this is all found in Catholicism and the Scriptures.

It has been said by some that the Scriptures are the Final Authority, but Catholic teaching, just as Scriptures tell us” (1 Tim 3:15) But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. When Jesus founded his church talking to Peter whose name most definitely translated from the original Aramaic text, is literally “Rock”. Jesus builds his church on rock and then goes on to give peter the Key’s to the Kingdom of Heaven, “whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven” This term binding and loosing is known by Jews as the Authority of the scribes and Pharisees, those who are mentioned in (Isiaiah 22: 19-23) this is their office, which is cut off from the old law and extended in the New. The Papacy is the same. We believe when “Jesus promised that the Gates of hell shall not prevail” he meant what he said, therefore we don’t worry about our Church becoming corrupt and falling. (Matt. 16:18; 18:18) - Jesus uses "ecclesia" only twice in the NT. This proves Jesus intended to build a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church. (Matthew 18:17-18) The Bishops (episcopoi) (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5) also called “Over Seer” Rule over Dioceses, they have their own communities and congregations, they appoint ordain and discipline priests (presbuteroi) (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15) who also forgive sins in Jesus name (John 20:21) (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."(James 5:14) Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful and deacons. (diakonoi) (Acts 6:1–6) Catholicism has all of this.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8-9 (ANF, Vol. I) 100 A.D.) See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people](Diocese) also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid . . . It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize, or to offer, or to present sacrifice, or to celebrate a love feast. But that which seems good to him, is also well pleasing to God, that everything you do may be secure and valid.

As you can see so far the Catholic Church is biblical, and is known in the earliest times of Church history. It is God himself who puts the Catholic Bishops, Priests and Deacon in Place. (1 Cor. 12:28) Some have said Catholics disobey Jesus Command of “Call no man Father” Does not John call the Elders (Presbyters, Priests) “Fathers” in (1 John 2: 13-14)? (Acts 22:1) “My brothers and fathers” Hence Catholics call their Priests “fathers in faith” just as Paul does in the scriptures. Jesus was trying to let them know, not to confuse them between their Father in heaven and the earthly fathers.

Now on to the big one, you all know what this is. The Eucharist. (John 6: 23-53) Through out this verses, the greek text uses the word “phago” nine times. “phago” literally means “to eat” or “physically consume.” (John 6:54-58) He uses and even more literal verb, translated as “trogo” which means to gnaw or chew or crunch. Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." 63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father." 66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the L-rd in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the L-rd . . .For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many are weak and ill, and some have died." (1Cor. 11.27-30) Catholics must confess their sins.

In the Scriptures, Old and New, Sin is separated into two degrees (hamartano (venial sins), and hamartema (Mortal sins) The Jews even believed this. If we are in mortal sin we are dirty and un-holy, we cannot receive the Eucharist (body and blood,of Christ)(The Todah offering/Christ body and Blood) in this state because it will kill us. (Same goes for Mary and the Immaculate conception) She could not have sin in her, because she would have died holding Christ in her womb)“We have lost much of our understanding about the things that are Kadosh (holy) and the things which are chol (common). Not only were people designated holy, like the Levitical priests that served the sanctuary, but also places and things. Some were so holy that to look at them could bring about death! (Num.4.20). To approach that which is holy in an unholy state is not allowed: "If any one of all your descendants throughout your generations approaches the holy things, which the people of Israel dedicate to the L-rd, while he has uncleanness, that person shall be cut off from My Presence: I AM YHVH." Lev.22.3 Or even touch it:” And when Aaron and his sons have finished covering the sanctuary and all the furnishings of the sanctuary, as the camp sets out, after that the sons of Kohath shall carry these, but they must not touch the holy things, lest they die." (Num.4.15) Can a mere symbol kill? Do symbols destroy the flesh? Was the Bread of Presence to be a mere symbol where only the priests were to eat of it (the exception was when David and his men who journeyed with him, ate the bread because there was no other food available and they did not defile themselves with women- (1Sam. 21.1-6). Only a spirit of the living G-d born out through His only Son in both body and blood are Holy and to approach the altar of the G-d Most High in an evil state is to profane His Holy Name. "For from the rising of the sun to its setting My Name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to My Name, and a pure offering; for My Name is great among the nations, says the L-rd of hosts. But you profane it when you say that the L-rd's table is polluted, and the food for it may be despised." (Mal.1.11-12). As for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, ancient Jewish rabbi’s predicted that Jesus would abolish all the sacrifices and offerings except for one called “The Todah” offering” That is The Thanksgiving Offering/sacrifice under the form of bread and wine. Thanksgiving in Greek is “Eucharistia” The Eucharist. Melchizedek in (Genesis 14:18)-this Priest pre-figured Christ, The Todah offering/sacrifice is biblical and is fulfilled by the Catholic Church.

Last but not least Purgatory According to Jewish sages, this is a period of spiritual punishment and/or purification for a period of up to 12 months after death called Gehinnom (in Yiddish it's Gehenna). However, Jesus clearly states there is not a "set" limit for all, but we set our own limits. Yet, if Calvary cleansed us of our sins, what is there left to pay (Protestant argument)? We believe the full text of Matthew helps clarify this as we read when Jesus is condemning when we judge our brother: "You have heard that it was said to men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'you fool!' shall be liable to Gehenna. So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, then come and offer your gift. Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put into prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny." Matt.5.21-26

Wassup Bro Kenneth, can you do me a favour bro. Can you e-mail this to submit@phatmass.com?

It just makes it easier to edit if it's a word doc or something similar.

Thank you.

Any other takers? the contest is still open.

:drool:

[Kiddkapps]

oops I forgot one thing and thats where the bible came from, sorry lemme fix that.

yeah...that's the most important part. :D

Holla back.

[MC Just]

Ok done., I will send it right now...

[Kiddkapps]

Ok done., I will send it right now...

Cool. thanks bro. Say hi to the fam for me. And Merry CHRISTmas if I don't get to talk to you before then.

Contest is still open for any other takers? OOOOoooooh Phatmass Prize!

[Kiddkapps]

:sadder:

[musturde]

wutz the prize? I'll only do it for a Phatmass email acount.

[Kiddkapps]

wutz the prize? I'll only do it for a Phatmass email acount.

It's a surprise...but you'll like it I think.