Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 [quote] Sam, Anti-Semitism is an outrage against the dignity of the human person. The Church teaches this. You need to grow up a little more, before you start making outrageously naive statements.[/quote] is that Anti-semetic Cam? [quote]Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris in 1200 CE that "the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord...As slaves rejected by God, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ's death set free..." In an epistle to the Count of Nevers, he wrote: "....the Jews, against whom the blood of Christ calls out, although they ought not to be killed, nevertheless, as wanderers they must remain upon the earth until their faces are filled with shame and they seek the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." In an epistle to the Hierarchy of France, he wrote: "Crucifiers of Christ ought to be held in continual subjection."[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 My priest said the world "zionist" in reference to the war in Iraq. I'm sure this student of Rome is an anti-semite too. Hatred is wrong, stating the natural place of Jews is hardly hatred. It is not more hatred then when I say, the Mohammadean is, and will always be, an infidel, who rejects Christ. I do not hate him saying this, it is simply harsh reality. As for accepting the Catechism as authoratative, yes all it's teachings, as long as they are in line with what the Church has taught, is authoratative. It derives no authority from itself, it's only authority comes from the fact that it is a legitmate expression of faith of the entire Church ( although, not all of it is about faith, some of it is a bit different, especially the part about homosexuality. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible". Something like that isn't a statement of faith or morals, psychological opinion is more appropriate, regardless of the validity of the comment). I think you seem to have mixed feelings about the Catechism, I suggest you read it for yourself, you won't find anything terribly offensive, just alot of wordieness. I certainly wouldn't use the word authoratative to describe it, but it does have the authority that is only inherent to the truths taught by the Church. As for whether catechisms contradict, I would have to say that they can, only because a catechism is a collection of truths of the Church, but that does not mean that everything collected is a truth of the Church. Like I said, somethings in it are hardly a matter of faith or morals. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Danke sir for bringing up a good example of something that's not faith or morals and isn't really a Church teaching as it stands. [quote]"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible". Something like that isn't a statement of faith or morals, psychological opinion is more appropriate, regardless of the validity of the comment).[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 There was no need for this post, but I'm making it anyway. I've read this passage in the CCC many times, and it seems almost true, except for the number being not negligable, since it implies quite a few, while even one person is nto negligable. And Deep-seated is so vague, that is why I wouldn't say the CCC is terribly authorative in it's style, its rather wishy-washy. Although, that really has no barring on the moral and faith related truths that are bound in it. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 17 2006, 05:42 AM']Nothing, it is an organic extension of the Magisterium, envisioned in Vatican Council II. It is just as binding on the faithful as the Code of Canon Law or the other documents of the Council. This is clearly explained in the promulgating documents at the beginning of the Catechim of the Catholic Church. [right][snapback]950395[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i agree cam, but it seems as if people are calling into question the authority and TRUTH of what is contained in the Catechism, as opposed to the Catechism of Trent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='dspen2005' date='Apr 17 2006, 07:24 PM']i agree cam, but it seems as if people are calling into question the authority and TRUTH of what is contained in the Catechism, as opposed to the Catechism of Trent [right][snapback]951366[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Long story, but I don't think all things in the Catechism are necessarily true and/or authoritative (just as what MichaelFilo gave as an example). Also, I think it is only fair to say the unlike the Code or a Council, the Catechism does not take its authority from itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted May 6, 2006 Share Posted May 6, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' post='951373' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:28 PM'] Long story, but I don't think all things in the Catechism are necessarily true and/or authoritative (just as what MichaelFilo gave as an example). Also, I think it is only fair to say the unlike the Code or a Council, the Catechism does not take its authority from itself. [/quote] Clearly Catholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted May 6, 2006 Share Posted May 6, 2006 [quote name='jasJis' post='973715' date='May 6 2006, 02:58 PM'] Clearly Catholic [/quote] Your sarcasm's really sad. Last I checked I'm considered a faithful Catholic by all I know, most especially including my professors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 6, 2006 Share Posted May 6, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' post='951373' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:28 PM'] Long story, but I don't think all things in the Catechism are necessarily true and/or authoritative (just as what MichaelFilo gave as an example). Also, I think it is only fair to say the unlike the Code or a Council, the Catechism does not take its authority from itself. [/quote] And you go against the promulgating documents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church with that statement. You are incorrect. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is one of the pillars of Vatican Council II just as the Code of Canon Law is and are the documents of the Council. Your view is askew and I think that you need to study the purpose of the Catechism more closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 [img]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0879738529.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 are there any Catholic ultra-traditionalists???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' post='973983' date='May 6 2006, 05:43 PM'] And you go against the promulgating documents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church with that statement. You are incorrect. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is one of the pillars of Vatican Council II just as the Code of Canon Law is and are the documents of the Council. Your view is askew and I think that you need to study the purpose of the Catechism more closely. [/quote] I don't go against the Catechism...please don't skew me when speaking about me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 Cam, you seem to say it has authority on its own grounds, but why would there be an Apostolic Constitution to give it authority that isn't even universal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 7, 2006 Share Posted May 7, 2006 The Catholic [b]Dogma[/b] contained in the CCC is sound, but that doesn't mean that it's way of wording things or style of presentation is inerrant, as if it were Sacred Scripture. For instance, its words about how many people have homosexual tendencies, how they are "deep-seated," etc., should not be taken as infallible. (Such periphreal issues do not fall under dogma). I myself find the presentation of much of the CCC to be a bit to "P.C." and striving to be "inoffensive" to modern liberal ears for my taste. I personally prefer the bold language of earlier Catechisms. This is not to deny that the CCC is an authoritative document of Catholic dogma, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' post='973983' date='May 6 2006, 04:43 PM'] And you go against the promulgating documents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church with that statement. You are incorrect. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is one of the pillars of Vatican Council II just as the Code of Canon Law is and are the documents of the Council. Your view is askew and I think that you need to study the purpose of the Catechism more closely. [/quote] Okie, so the CCC is considered without error? Thanks. [quote name='dspen2005' post='974062' date='May 6 2006, 06:25 PM'] are there any Catholic ultra-traditionalists???? [/quote] What do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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