Here's a doozy...

[Slave_of_the_Trinity]

Alright, i was talking to my spiritual director about the Trinity and he said that the Most Holy Trinity is present in the Holy Eucharist because of the union of the Three Divine Persons. But another priest said that it would be a heresy to say that the WhOLE Trinity is present in the Holy Eucharist because it is not right to say that the Father and the Holy Spirit both have bodies. So... who's right? I think that it is fair to say that the Divinity of the Holy Trinity is Present in the Eucharist, but that it is Christ's Human Nature there as well. Does that make any sense?

Edited April 12, 2006 by Slave_of_the_Trinity

[N/A Gone]

Im not an expert on trinitarian theology, but my understanding is in sacraments there is the act and that is attributed to christ/Father. and in celebrating that act the spirit brings others into it. This is a simple model that would need to be speculated depending. Pneumatology speaks of this in baptism. An issue I know in trinitarian theology is that the three are together, they are one, thus they are present as one. But the functional roles can be different. The spirit brings us into the communion, christ is the body and the host, and the father accepts the sacrifice..

like I said, not cannon, but good stuff

[phatcatholic]

hmm, this is my first time using this phrase to describe the presence in the Eucharist, so it could very well be heretical. what if we were to say this?:

--The Trinity is present [i]substantially[/i], but only the Son is present [i]personally[/i]

any thoughts?

[cappie]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Apr 12 2006, 02:44 PM']hmm, this is my first time using this phrase to describe the presence in the Eucharist, so it could very well be heretical. what if we were to say this?:

--The Trinity is present [i]substantially[/i], but only the Son is present [i]personally[/i]

any thoughts?
[right][snapback]944399[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Sounds good...... Christ is present in the Holy Eucharist, Body, Blood Soul and Divinity therefore.......It is not only the substantial presence of the Body and Blood of Christ, it is his Soul and Divinity as well.

Insofar as the Athanasian Creed says:

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

The divinity of Christ in the Eucharist is the same divinity of the Father and Holy Spirit....

Maybe someone else can enlighten us my speciality is Moral Theology and Canon Law, not Dogmatic Theology :

[missionseeker]

That makes sense.

[cappie]

Quote from Bishop Kevin Manning Bishop of Parramatta.

He has given Himself to us as food and drink in the Eucharist as our spiritual nourishment out of love. God's whole plan ..... is directed towards our being joined together more fully in the life of the Blessed Trinity which is the Communion of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We start to share in this life when we are baptised, when, through the power of the Holy Spirit, we are joined to Christ and become adopted sons and daughters of the Father. [b]This sharing in the life of the Trinity is strengthened and increased through the Sacrament of Confirmation, and it is nourished and deepened through our participation in the Blessed Eucharist.[/b]

Through our eating His Body and drinking His Blood in the Eucharist we become united to the person of Jesus through His humanity: "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in that person" (Jn 6:56). But, in being united to the humanity of Christ, we are at the same time united to His divinity and our mortal and corruptible natures are transformed by being joined to the source of life: "As the living Father sent me, and I draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will also draw life from me" (Jn 6:57).

So, by being united to Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, we are drawn up into an eternal relationship of love with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Just as Jesus is the eternal Son of God by nature, so we become sons and daughters of God by adoption through the Sacrament of Baptism. Through the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation we become temples of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

By His in-dwelling we are made holy by the gift of Sanctifying Grace. Our hope, given to us through the Resurrection, is that we will one day share in the life of the Holy Trinity. Thus, we come to understand that God does not merely send us good things from on high, but [b]we are brought up into the inner life of God, the communion of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.[/b]

[thessalonian]

There are different modes of prescence. God is present in all things. Even in the chair you are sitting in in some fashion. This does not however mean that if you eat the chair you will be eating God and this is not the kind of prescence in which Jesus is present in the Eucharist which is wholy and substantially, sacramentally, but not physically. You cannot have Jesus prescence without the prescence of the trinity. It's just not possible. So yes the Holy Spirit and the Father for that matter would be present in the Eucharist but it would not be the same prescence in which Christ is wholly, truly, substantially, and sacramentally present in the Eucharist. The answer must be yes, but don't ask me to explain it any further than this.

Blessings

[Theoketos]

"Thus the Trinity, Incarnation, and Eucharist are really welded together like a precious chain, which in a wonderful manner links heaven with earth, God with man, uniting them most intimately and keeping them thus united. By the very fact that the Eucharistic mystery does transcend reason, no rationalistic explanation of it, based on a merely natural hypothesis and seeking to comprehend one of the sublimest truths of the Christian religion as the spontaneous conclusion of logical processes, may be attempted by a Catholic theologian."

The Trinity ~ Incarnation ~ Eucharist

[jswranch]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Apr 11 2006, 09:44 PM']hmm, this is my first time using this phrase to describe the presence in the Eucharist, so it could very well be heretical. what if we were to say this?:

--The Trinity is present [i]substantially[/i], but only the Son is present [i]personally[/i]

any thoughts?
[right][snapback]944399[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

This makes me think of the Theotokos argument/limitations. Mary is the 'mother of God' in that she gave birth only to the second person in the trinity, assisting in the Jesus/Son of Man hypostatic union (as per RCIA).

Hence (proposal):

The Trinity is as substantially present in the Eucharist as Mary is the substantial Mother of the Trinity.

Another point of common sense (excuse my Chestertonian leanings):
Supose you were to use a time machine to go back and shake the hand of Christ. Would you be 'substanially' shaking hands with the Trinity? The answer and supporting reasons would be the same to confirm or deny the presence of the Trinity in the Eucharist.

Trent (Session XIII) had little to comment specifically on our topic of Trinitarian presence. It does, of course, repeatedly confirm the Transubstantiation of Christ. However its abscence of comment may deny the proposition of an arguable level of Trinitarian presence in the Eucharist in light of a sentence in the Intro.

Intro:
Wherefore, this holy council, stating that sound and genuine doctrine of the venerable and divine sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Catholic Church, instructed by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and by His Apostles,.... forbids all the faithful of Christ to presume henceforth to believe, teach or preach with regard to the most Holy Eucharist otherwise than is explained and defined in this present decree.

Semi-relevant Trent Trivia:
Canon 11. If anyone says that faith alone is a sufficient preparation for receiving the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist,[52] let him be anathema. And lest so great a sacrament be received unworthily and hence unto death and condemnation, this holy council ordains and declares that sacramental confession, when a confessor can be had, must necessarily be made beforehand by those whose conscience is burdened with mortal sin, however contrite they may consider themselves. Moreover, if anyone shall presume to teach, preach or obstinately assert, or in public disputation defend the contrary, he shall be <eo ipso> excommunicated.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='jswranch' date='Apr 13 2006, 08:15 AM']This makes me think of the Theotokos argument/limitations.  Mary is the 'mother of God' in that she gave birth only to the second person in the trinity, assisting in the Jesus/Son of Man hypostatic union (as per RCIA). 

Hence (proposal):

The Trinity is as substantially present in the Eucharist as Mary is the  substantial Mother of the Trinity. 

Another point of common sense (excuse my Chestertonian leanings):
Supose you were to use a time machine to go back and shake the hand of Christ.  Would you be 'substanially' shaking hands with the Trinity?  The answer and supporting reasons would be the same to confirm or deny the presence of the Trinity in the Eucharist.

Trent (Session XIII) had little to comment specifically on our topic of Trinitarian presence.  It does, of course, repeatedly confirm the Transubstantiation of Christ.  However its abscence of comment may deny the proposition of an arguable level of Trinitarian presence in the Eucharist in light of a sentence in the Intro.

Intro:
Wherefore, this holy council, stating that sound and genuine doctrine of the venerable and divine sacrament of the Eucharist, which the Catholic Church, instructed by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and by His Apostles,....      forbids all the faithful of Christ to presume henceforth to believe, teach or preach with regard to the most Holy Eucharist otherwise than is explained and defined in this present decree.

Semi-relevant Trent Trivia:
Canon 11. If anyone says that faith alone is a sufficient preparation for receiving the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist,[52] let him be anathema. And lest so great a sacrament be received unworthily and hence unto death and condemnation, this holy council ordains and declares that sacramental confession, when a confessor can be had, must necessarily be made beforehand by those whose conscience is burdened with mortal sin, however contrite they may consider themselves. Moreover, if anyone shall presume to teach, preach or obstinately assert, or in public disputation defend the contrary, he shall be <eo ipso> excommunicated.
[right][snapback]945978[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

[Maria]

[quote name='Slave_of_the_Trinity' date='Apr 11 2006, 08:25 PM']Alright, i was talking to my spiritual director about the Trinity and he said that the Most Holy Trinity is present in the Holy Eucharist because of the union of the Three Divine Persons.  But another priest said that it would be a heresy to say that the WhOLE Trinity is present in the Holy Eucharist because it is not right to say that the Father and the Holy Spirit both have bodies.  So... who's right?  I think that it is fair to say that the Divinity of the Holy Trinity is Present in the Eucharist, but that it is Christ's Human Nature there as well.  Does that make any sense? 
[right][snapback]944008[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
The way I tend to think of it (which seems to agree with the little I read of the other replies) is that the eucharist [i]is[/i] Jesus, but the Father and the Spirit are also present in a special way, since the three are inseperable (and it's through the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is present, etc.).

[Apotheoun]

There are important distinctions that need to be made when speaking of the presence of Christ (and of the Trinity) in the mystery of the Eucharist.

First, Christ is present by the power of the prayer of consecration of the bread, which transforms the bread into His body; and second, He is present by the separate prayer of consecration of the wine, which transforms the wine into His blood. Thus, by the separate prayers of consecration the sacrifice of Christ is mystically rendered present as the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, but because Christ -- through the power of His resurrection -- is ever-living, it follows that by [i]natural concomitance[/i] the consecrated bread, which has been transformed into His body, also contains His blood, soul, and divinity, while at the same time the consecrated wine, which has been changed into His blood, also contains His body, soul, and divinity. In other words, by the power of the prayers of consecration the bread and wine are changed into the Lord's body and blood, while through [i]natural concomitance[/i] the whole Christ is present in both of the Eucharistic species, which have been consecrated separately in order to mystically proclaim the Lord's sacrificial death.

Now as far as the presence of the Trinity in the Eucharist is concerned, although the persons ([i]hypostases[/i]) of the Trinity are really distinct from each other (because to say otherwise is to fall into the heresy of Sabellian modalism), they also indwell each other without separation or confusion. This mutual indwelling of the persons ([i]hypostases[/i]) of the Trinity is called the mystery of [i]perichoresis[/i] (co-inherence), which simply means that the distinct persons ([i]hypostases[/i]) of the Trinity are inseparable, since the whole of the divine essence is present in each person ([i]hypostasis[/i]). Thus, through [i]perichoresis[/i] the Father and the Spirit are present in the Eucharist along with the Son, but this mysterious presence of the Trinity within the Eucharist is dependent upon the primary mystery, which is the transformation of the elements into the body and blood of Christ by the separate prayers of consecration.

Now for the sake of clarity I will summarize what I said above: (1) the body and blood of Christ are present in the Eucharist through the separate prayers of consecration, which also have the effect of manifesting in a mystical way Christ's one oblation upon the cross; while (2) through what is called [i]natural concomitance[/i] the whole Christ (body, blood, soul and divinity) is present in both the consecrated bread and the consecrated wine; and finally, (3) through the mystery of [i]perichoresis[/i] (i.e., the mutual indwelling of the persons of the Trinity) the Father and Spirit are present with the Son -- in a dependent manner -- in the mystery of the Eucharist.

I hope that this explanation helps to clarify things for everyone.

God bless,
Todd

[phatcatholic]

apotheoun.......................would you agree with this statement?:

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Apr 11 2006, 11:44 PM']--The Trinity is present [i]substantially[/i], but only the Son is present [i]personally[/i][right][snapback]944399[/snapback][/right][/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='950673' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:01 AM']
apotheoun.......................would you agree with this statement?:

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='944399' date='Apr 11 2006, 08:44 PM']
--The Trinity is present [i]substantially[/i], but only the Son is present [i]personally[/i]
[/quote][/quote]
I would avoid the use of the word [i]substance[/i] in connection with the presence of the Father and the Spirit in the Eucharist, because that term is really best used only in connection with the transformation of the substance of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. The presence of the Father and the Spirit with Christ in the Eucharist is connected instead to the co-inherence ([i]perichoresis[/i]) of the divine essence within the three persons of the Trinity. In other words, although the persons of the Trinity are really distinct from each other, they cannot be separated, which means that wherever the Son is, the Father and the Spirit are also present.

[phatcatholic]

maybe this is better?:

--The Trinity is present [i]essentially[/i], but only the Son is present [i]personally[/i]

of course, by "essentially" i mean in the metaphysical sense, as pertaining to the essence of a thing. maybe its improper to reduce what is involved into a catchy little phrase, but it would be helpful as a simple way to explain the reality of the Eucharist.