Questions for Trads

[Maria]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Apr 10 2006, 09:38 PM']but there is no justification on the basis of the Rosary....
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Um, what I was saying, basically, was that there is merit to the old format of the rosary that the new format doesn't have (or not as clearly). Therefore, (as with most things) there is [i]a sort[/i] of justification to their position. As in, there are valid reasons, but I don't think the reasons call for the response often given.
Something like that.


[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Apr 13 2006, 02:16 PM']So...I'm confused on what you said. Do you not like trads then?? Sorry...I'm slow. 
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I like some, I don't really like others... mainly I disagree with them while being sympathetic to the reasons for their positions. Obviously I disagree with them to different extents, depending on their position. If they just prefer the TLM, my disagreement will be along the lines of 'but there are things about the NO that you think are bad that have good in them' -- ie, it won't be a serious disagreement. My disagreement will be a stronger with those who insist on going to non-indult masses and claim that it's legal (I forget all the arguments). But again, I'm sypathetic to their reasons for wanting to go there. Etc


[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Apr 13 2006, 02:19 PM']So, does this mean, I, who loves the TLM better then any mass and think it is the most beautiful am not a Trad? See, I've always thought "Trads" were different then "Traditional Catholics." lol!
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Don't you fit into the first group I mentioned -- those who think the TLM is superior and should not have been replaced?
Just as my personal opinion, from what I've seen (not very much, though), I'd say you're definitely a trad, but not in a bad sense. Like, my disagreement with you would be on the personal opinion level of saying that there can be good in Life-teen masses as Life-teen masses.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

im a trad. i think that all the sacraments are valid and licit.

[Maria]

Sam, why do you want to be confirmed at a TLM? (Of course, wanting it isn't a bad thing or anything, but I want to know why, 'cause that's what makes the difference.)

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Maria' date='Apr 13 2006, 08:28 PM']Sam, why do you want to be confirmed at a TLM? (Of course, wanting it isn't a bad thing or anything, but I want to know why, 'cause that's what makes the difference.)
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Because im afraid that the Form Will be done incorrectly if done in the NO.

[Ora et Labora]

I was confirmed at the TLM and it was so nice. I think I can speak for Sam when I say...we both think it is more beautiful.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Maria' date='Apr 13 2006, 07:03 PM']Don't you fit into the first group I mentioned -- those who think the TLM is superior and should not have been replaced?
Just as my personal opinion, from what I've seen (not very much, though), I'd say you're definitely a trad, but not in a bad sense. Like, my disagreement with you would be on the personal opinion level of saying that there can be good in Life-teen masses as Life-teen masses.
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Ahh. I see. Well, I guess your complimenting me. Ya, that would be a personal level...I argue about that issue a lot. lol

[prose]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 13 2006, 07:08 PM']im a trad. i think that all the sacraments are valid and licit.
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[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 13 2006, 07:42 PM']Because im afraid that the Form Will be done incorrectly if done in the NO.
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The NO form will be done wrong, therefore making it illicit? Or the NO is okay, but often done wrong (in your opinion)?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]This is the case if oil other than the sacred chrism is used, or an oil other than olive oil (highly doubtful, since at variance with the divine institution of using olive oil) as is now permitted in the new rites, or if the signing with the sacred chrism and the imposition of the hand were not done at the same time, or if there is a doubt about the words used. Since there is a great variety in the words used, and since the traditional words "I sign thee with the sign of the cross and I confirm thee with the chrism of salvation, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" are never used, there is very frequently a doubt about the validity of the administration of this sacrament. [/quote]

[Sarah_JC]

That's what was said at my confirmation (well, Holy Spirit.... but Spirit sounds closer to Spiritus to me anyhow). And my parish at the time was kinda sketch... but this is the Bishop coming in to confirm you, right?
The Bishop isn't going to mess around with form.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Sarah_JC' date='Apr 15 2006, 08:11 AM']That's what was said at my confirmation (well, Holy Spirit.... but Spirit sounds closer to Spiritus to me anyhow). And my parish at the time was kinda sketch... but this is the Bishop coming in to confirm you, right?
The Bishop isn't going to mess around with form.
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one would think that, wouldn't one?

except my bishop is a liberal. in fact i went to Mass on Thursday celebrated by him. it was illict becuase of liturgical abuses, inculding washing the feet of women, and the fact that some parishoners were holding hands during the Lord's Prayer.

[amandaplus5]

[quote]in fact i went to Mass on Thursday celebrated by him. it was illict becuase of liturgical abuses, inculding washing the feet of women, and the fact that some parishoners were holding hands during the Lord's Prayer.[/quote]

So you're saying that an entire mass can be illicit if some parishoners hold hands during the the Lord's prayer? That doesn't make much sense to me. Yes, technically speaking, people are not supposed to do that. However, you seem to be missing the entire point of the mass. The mass is about the Eucharist. If there was major liturgical abuse dealing with that, then yes, you might have a point. But by focusing on the little technicalities, you're missing out on the mass' beauty.

We should do everything in our power to correct liturgical abuse. That does not mean that we need to over-analyze every single little hand movement. That's not being liturgically correct - that's called being prideful.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='amandaplus5' date='Apr 15 2006, 09:01 AM']So you're saying that an entire mass can be illicit if some parishoners hold hands during the the Lord's prayer?  That doesn't make much sense to me.  Yes, technically speaking, people are not supposed to do that.  However, you seem to be missing the entire point of the mass.  The mass is about the Eucharist.  If there was major liturgical abuse dealing with that, then yes, you might have a point.  But by focusing on the little technicalities, you're missing out on the mass' beauty.

We should do everything in our power to correct liturgical abuse.  That does not mean that we need to over-analyze every single little hand movement.  That's not being liturgically correct - that's called being prideful.
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no its not. That is not allowed. i am just saying what is not allowed by the church. the pride is that this prince of the church disobeys the rubrics, and washes the feet of women, and allows for "hand holding". frankly i am used to the many liturgical abuses in the novus ordo. It is one of the reasons i do not like to attend. How is following the rubrics "bieng Prideful"?

[Noel's angel]

No, no Sam, you have it wrong. I hate liturgical abuse as much as the next person, but I sure as heck am not going to turn my back on Jesus in the Eucharist because a few people were holding hands with eachother. Don't walk away because of things a few people do to annoy you, rather, stay and focus on Christ because that is what you are there for. Walking away from things and ignoring them isn't doing anyone anny good. If you feel that there are issues that need to be addressed then ask your priest or bishop. With regards to the washing of womn's feet, there could be some reason why this was done-something that could make the practices legitimate in that situation. Why don't you ask the Bishop about these things instead of running off and shouting about it behind his back?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Apr 15 2006, 09:31 AM']No, no Sam, you have it wrong.  I hate liturgical abuse as much as the next person, but I sure as heck am not going to turn my back on Jesus in the Eucharist because a few people were holding hands with eachother.  Don't walk away because of things a few people do to annoy you, rather, stay and focus on Christ because that is what you are there for.  Walking away from things and ignoring them isn't doing anyone anny good.  If you feel that there are issues that need to be addressed then ask your priest or bishop.  With regards to the washing of womn's feet, there could be some reason why this was done-something that could make the practices legitimate in that situation.  Why don't you ask the Bishop about these things instead of running off and shouting about it behind his back?
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running away?

i recieved at the mass.

btw its a little hard to speak to your bishop about liturgical abuses when he is the one perpreating these crimes.

[Noel's angel]

I'm not talking about this Mass specifically, but the whole Confirmation thing.

That's all the more reason for talking to him. Go humbly, remember he is your senior and ask him why he does these things etc. It's amazing what a humble heart can do to changes things.