Questions for Trads

[prose]

I have asked these before, but it keeps getting lost in other threads.

I do not mean this as an attack, I honestly want to know. I don't understand where you are coming from.

1. You believe the Church has had an apostacy, right?
2. When, and why do you believe this?
3. How is you claiming this any different from the Mormons claiming this happened, only earlier?
4. How is your belief different from protestants?
5. Who is the pope if Pope Benedict isn't? Do you consider him an anti-pope?
6. Why would God abandon his Church now when he promised us he wouldn't? Is there biblical proof that he would?

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='prose' date='Apr 9 2006, 08:25 PM']I have asked these before, but it keeps getting lost in other threads. 

I do not mean this as an attack, I honestly want to know.  I don't understand where you are coming from.

1. You believe the Church has had an apostacy, right?
2. When, and why do you believe this?
3. How is you claiming this any different from the Mormons claiming this happened, only earlier?
4. How is your belief different from protestants?
5. Who is the pope if Pope Benedict isn't?  Do you consider him an anti-pope?
6.  Why would God abandon his Church now when he promised us he wouldn't?  Is there biblical proof that he would?
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[/quote]
Your questions should be directed to 'sedevacantists', not 'Trads'. As a trad I would answer your questions

1. No
2. I don't
3. N/A
4. In many ways, all good.
5. BXVI is my Pope. No
6. The gates of Hell shall never prevail.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Apr 9 2006, 10:30 PM']Your questions should be directed to 'sedevacantists', not 'Trads'.  As a trad I would answer your questions

1.  No
2.  I don't
3.  N/A
4.  In many ways, all good.
5.  BXVI is my Pope.  No
6.  The gates of Hell shall never prevail.
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[/quote]

And you are going to confuse the tar out of everyone here. :

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Apr 9 2006, 07:30 PM']Your questions should be directed to 'sedevacantists', not 'Trads'. 
[/quote]

[prose]

Okay, whoops.

I guess it is just that people here (like EENS for instance) refer to themselves as "trads".

These are who I am referring to.

Thanks though.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 9 2006, 08:31 PM']And you are going to confuse the tar out of everyone here. :
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[/quote]
You're absolutely right. I was just being difficult.

I apologize.

[OLAM Dad]

But I really resist and resent the implication that Traditional = bad.

[Maria]

I'm not a trad, but I can tell you that there are lots of different kinds of trads. Asking what the trads believe is kind of like asking what the protestants believe. Some merely believe that the T rite is far superior and should not have been replaced; some believe that VII was a wholly legitimate council that brought about a time of great disaster, through the documents did not call for the changes that followed it; some believe that VII was invalid or at least has no authority (since it was a pastoral council and did not make any infallible decisions). These trads are not schismatic and they accept the pope, they just think that things have gone horribly wrong and the Church is in a period of great darkness (or something).
Then there are trads who say that either John XXIII or Paul VI (but usually John XXIII) was heretical and therefore not really pope, so there is no pope. Some of the really weird sede-vacantists have elected popes in various strange fashions. There's also a theory that some other cardinal (I forget who) was legitimately elected instead of John XXIII and Paul VI (etc, until that cardinal died), and so he was the real, non-heretical pope, but of course it was all hushed up.
Most of the trads I've met heartily disapprove of the post-Puis XII popes, VII, and the pauline mass, but accept their legitimacy. Often they go to SSPX masses not because they are in schism, but because they feel that at a NO mass they'd face spiritual dangers they'd rather avoid, as well as not receiving adequate spiritual guidance (they often talk of a diminished sense of sin among non-SSPX priests).
Sometimes you meet a really weird 'trad' who is more in reaction than anything else. The person's faith is immature, and he will often hold positions incompatible with Catholism. Other trads won't know whether to disown him or embrace him as one of their own.

Anyway, that's from what I've seen of trads on the net. One last (very subjective) observation is that they tend to be focussed more on negatives, as though their religion is one of saying 'no' to evil and abuses, rather than saying 'yes' to God (which implies saying 'no' to evil, but it's a different mentality).

[OLAM Dad]

Maria, :applause:

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='prose' date='Apr 9 2006, 08:25 PM']I have asked these before, but it keeps getting lost in other threads. 

I do not mean this as an attack, I honestly want to know.  I don't understand where you are coming from.

1. You believe the Church has had an apostacy, right?
2. When, and why do you believe this?
3. How is you claiming this any different from the Mormons claiming this happened, only earlier?
4. How is your belief different from protestants?
5. Who is the pope if Pope Benedict isn't?  Do you consider him an anti-pope?
6.  Why would God abandon his Church now when he promised us he wouldn't?  Is there biblical proof that he would?
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[/quote]


1. no.
2. N/A
3. N/A
4. my belief is different protestants because i believe that Benedict XVI is the Vicar of Christ on Earth. I am part of the same church as you. Trads do not reject the Magesterium of the church. Just the novelties taught becasue of the "spirit of Vatican II"
5. He is the Pope.
6. Jeus said that the gates of hell would never prevail against the church. that is why i am not a sedevecantist. but he never said it would be a walk in the park.



Sam
6.

[Maria]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Apr 9 2006, 09:51 PM']Maria,  :applause:
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[/quote]
Thanks
I started writing it before anyone else had replied. I wonder what the trads here think of it. I'm not a trad specialist or anything: I've just been on a board that had Catholics and protestants of every stripe. It was... interesting. As well (as it isn't a board that shies away from debates and arguments) I made a few observations. They've been confirmed from what I've seen elsewhere on the net.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]1. You believe the Church has had an apostacy, right?
2. When, and why do you believe this?
3. How is you claiming this any different from the Mormons claiming this happened, only earlier?
4. How is your belief different from protestants?
5. Who is the pope if Pope Benedict isn't? Do you consider him an anti-pope?
6. Why would God abandon his Church now when he promised us he wouldn't? Is there biblical proof that he would?
[/quote]

1. No
2. na
3. na
4. I accept and firmly believe in all the dogmas of the Catholic Church so my beliefs are in no way like the beliefs of Prots
5. All hail His Holieness, Pope Benedict XVI!
6. God wouldnt abandon His Church

[prose]

Okay, so then I REALLY don't understand now. What is all the debate about?

[Paphnutius]

Such statements as this:[quote] [A trad]...believes the TLM to be surperior to the NO[/quote] and so forth.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i would link the site for you prose, but its not allowed. here is what Trads believe, and why.

[quote]    *  The Error: A new ecclesiology that doesn't equate the Catholic Church with the Church established by Jesus Christ, but states that the Church established by Jesus Christ is merely partly contained in the Catholic Church in a vague, undefined way -- a confusion arising over controversies in understanding the true and intended meaning of the word "subsistet" in "Lumen Gentium."

      The Truth: To do less than equate the Catholic Church with Christ's Mystical Body contradicts Pope Pius XII's '"Mystici Corporis Christi'' among other papal documents, and leads to false ideas of ecumenism.
     
    * The Error: An acceptance -- deriving from (at least) modernist interpretations of "Lumen Gentium" -- of collegiality, the idea that there exists a "college of Bishops" at all times (rather than just during Ecumenical Councils) which has authority and jurisdiction over the Church. This idea has weakened the papacy, attempted to democratize the Church by destroying the monarchial relationship between the Pope and his Bishops, and has made bishops' conferences a veritable "second Vicar of Christ" for the Church. This contradicts, among other documents, Pope Leo XIII's ''Satis Cognitum'' and the "Nota Praevia'' to Vatican II's ''Lumen Gentium.''

      The Truth: Catholic teaching is that the Keys were given to Peter (Matthew 16), that he and his successors are the Vicars of Christ who are blessed with the charism of infallibility which is exercised in very specific ways, and who have full and supreme authority over the Church apart from any other human being. Bishops derive their authority from him, who receives it from Christ. They have no authority apart from him and do not constitute an alternate or equal authority -- neither individually, nor collectively.
     
    * The Error: A deflated view of the papacy and Magisterium on the

part of "progressives," and an inflated view of the papacy and the Magisterium on the part of conservative Catholics who misunderstand papal infallibility and the different levels of the Magisterium.

      The Truth: The Pope exercises his infallibility under very specific conditions. The Magisterium -- the teaching authority of the Church -- has three levels, not two, and only two of those levels are infallible. That which falls outside the Extraordinary Magisterium or the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is fallible. It is owed religious assent, but not if it leads to sin, to error, harm of souls, etc.
     
    * The Error: a new focus on "the dignity of man" coupled with an over-emphasis on the natural virtues (as opposed to the supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity which come from God alone rather than nature). This ignores original sin and the need for supernatural grace, leading to a sort of Utopianism that sees peace as possible without recognizing the Kingship of Christ, and seemingly gives the Church a new mission: peace on earth rather than the salvation of souls. This attitude, and teachings rooted in it, contradict Pope Pius X's "Quas Primas'', Pope Leo XIII's "Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae,'' ''Rerum Novarum,'' Pope Pius X's ''Notre charge apostolique,'' and other papal and conciliar documents that deal with social teaching.

      The Truth: There is no peace without the Prince of Peace. Man has lost his likeness to God through original sin, and this likeness can only be restored through supernatural grace. Without this likeness, there will be strife among peoples and nations, and no amount of "Can't we all just get along?" thinking can overcome it. The purpose of the Church and all Her laws is the salvation of souls. Peace on earth is a fruit of man's regaining his likeness to God through the Sacraments and faith, but not the Church's primary goal.
     
    * The Error: An embracing of the false ideas of "religious liberty" and the radical separation of Church and State. This contradicts the oldest teaching of the Church, Leo XIII's "Testem Benevolentiae Nostra," etc.

      The Truth: While it may be prudent and beneficial to the common good to tolerate error at times, and while those in error must be treated with charity, error has no "rights." A State whose laws are not based on natural law, whose laws don't have the Christian understanding of the True, Good, and Beautiful at their center, and whose laws don't have the good of the souls of its citizens/subjects at their heart is bound to lead to trouble with great eternal and temporal consequences.
     
    * The Error: The spread of a false ecumenism (movement toward unity between Christians) and incessant, fruitless interreligious dialogue (dialogue between Christians and non-Christians) that has as its goal a religious unity that doesn't require conversion to the Catholic faith; that has served to water down the Catholic Faith in order to appease non-Catholics; and that has led to scandalous "interfaith" prayer and worship services that are based on sentiment and feelings rather than true charity which is rooted in Truth. This contradicts Sacred Scripture, Pope Pius X's "Our Apostolic Mandate" ("Notre Charge Apostolique"), Pope Pius XI's ''Mortalium Animos,'' Pope Pius XII's ''Humani Generis'' and other documents.

      The Truth: It is a dogma of the Faith that "outside the Church there is no salvation" ("extra ecclesiam nulla salus"). To gain a proper understanding of this teaching, see the relevant paragraphs on the page "Catholicism 101: A Brief Primer."
     
    * The Error: A new view of ecclesiastical tradition that sees it as extremely changeable and has led to dangerous modifications in Catholic practices, liturgy, and disciplines, and to an embracing of novelty which had been unheard of it the Church before the Second Vatican Council. This contradicts, among other papal and conciliar documents, Pope Pius X's Motu Proprio ''Sacrorum antistitum'' (an oath taken by all priests prior to the Council), Pope Gregory XVI's ''Mirari Vos'', the Fourth Anathema of the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, the teaching of the First Vatican Council, especially the document ''Pastor Aeternus" and the ''Fourth Anathema of the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea'' which reads, "If anyone rejects any written or unwritten Tradition of the Church, let him be anathema."

      The Truth: Ecclesiastical traditions can change over time, but they must do so only slowly, organically, and never if the changes harm souls, lead to sin, damage the understanding of the Faith, etc. One of the three Pillars of the Church is Tradition; it must be guarded, whether those traditions are written or unwritten.
     
    * The Error: new and critical attitude towards Sacred Scripture that contradicts Leo XIII's ''Providentissimus Deus'' and Benedict XV's ''Spiritus Paraclitus'' among other documents.

      The Truth: Sacred Scripture is infallible, divinely inspired, and historically and scientifically accurate even though some parts of it are to be read poetically or metaphorically. Proper interpretation of Sacred Scripture can be known by reading the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, and by reading infallible definitions from Popes and Councils convened by Popes.
     
    * The Error: An ignoring of the fact that the Church and the world are at variance with one another to some degree, and that the Church has enemies. This ignores Sacred Scripture, Pope Pius X's warnings in ''Pascendi Dominici Gregis,'' Leo XIII's ''Humanum Genus'', and many other papal warnings against secret societies and enemies of Christendom. The most obvious and dangerous way in which our hierarchs are betraying the Catholic Faith is in a new attitude toward Judaism, a religion that is not the religion of the Old Testament, but is Pharisaic rabbinism based on the explicitly anti-Christ Talmud rather than on Torah.

      The Truth: The Church has always had enemies and will always have enemies until the end of time. Toward the end of time, Antichrist will come and lead these enemies to persecute the Church as She follows Christ in His Passion and Resurrection.
     
    * The Error: A new "Paschal theology" which de-emphasizes the Sacrificial aspects of our salvation and which leads the faithful to believe that it is Christ's Resurrection alone, and not the Blood shed by His Sacrifice on the Cross, that saves. The revision of the Mass liturgy under Pope Paul VI is a fruit of this "paschal theology," a theology that contradicts Scripture and Encyclicals such as Pope Pius XII's "Mediator Dei''. This paschal theology also de-emphasizes the meaning of suffering, ignoring Christ's admonition to Christians to "take up their crosses" (Matthew 10:38), and forgetting St. Paul's admonitions to mortify the flesh (Galatians 5:18-25, Colossians 1:23-24).

      The Truth: 1 Corinthians 1:23 "We preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness." We get to the Resurrection through the Cross; we have to pick up our own crosses and follow Him. [/quote]