stopping abortions

[Tarcisius]

[quote]Unorganized random violence against individuals will get us nowhere.[/quote]

An individual doing Gods work is hardly unorganized random violence. Where will it get us? well those children that day will still be alive. No, one shooting wont save all the children, but neither will stopping one serial killer, its still the right thing to do.

Paul Hill recieved several letters while in jail from women who were scheduled to kill there children the day he shot a doctor. They thanked him for saving there childs life. He only shot one doctor and saved at least 3 lives, probably more. He did the right thing.

[Brother Adam]

I've never seen an abortion clinic close because of violence. I have by prayer vigils though. And a clinic that is closed says thousands of lives rather than 3 by murder.

Edited April 12, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Nathan]

We are not, as Christians, called to stop abortions by force. We are called to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ, so that people might find the right answer within themselves.

[Brother Adam]

I have a baptist friend who thinks that because Mosaic law is a "model law" we should stone our children if they misbehave.

[Tarcisius]

Prayer is good, and pray we must, but much evil exists in the world because people who were afraid to act said all we gotta do is pray.

"We are not, as Christians, called to stop abortions by force."

where are you getting this from???? As a Catholic you are bound to defend the innocent.

also adam, a clinic closing is definitly good, and it definitly is a result of prayer, but the doctor just moves onto another clinic...

if instead they were killing 8yos at these clinics, would the correct Catholic response be to wait till it closes if ever, or to go and stop them today.

how could you tell the children alive today because paul hill stopped there murder that he should of not saved them and instead prayed while they were slaughtered

[prose]

Haven't we seen this poll like 10 times in the last 2 weeks?

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Tarcisius' date='Apr 12 2006, 10:05 AM']Prayer is good, and pray we must, but much evil exists in the world because people who were afraid to act said all we gotta do is pray.

"We are not, as Christians, called to stop abortions by force."

where are you getting this from???? As a Catholic you are bound to defend the innocent.

also adam, a clinic closing is definitly good, and it definitly is a result of prayer, but the doctor just moves onto another clinic...

if instead they were killing 8yos at these clinics, would the correct Catholic response be to wait till it closes if ever, or to go and stop them today.

how could you tell the children alive today because paul hill stopped there murder that he should of not saved them and instead prayed while they were slaughtered
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I'm sorry but maybe you can show in the new testament especially in acts and the epistles where christians used violent force to stop injustice. I can't remember any. Oh yeah I think it is because Jesus told Peter "you live by the sword, you die by the sword". Afterall Peter was defending an innocent life. Prayer which is lead by the Spirit is more powerful than any weapon or act of violence man can use. Otherwise Jesus would of said to use a catapult to move the mountain into the sea instead of faith.

It is also true that violence brings about retaliation and revenge; therefore, If we were to get violent with these abortionists you would see a push for more choice and more baby killing like never before. Saving one life would actually result in taking many more. Also tighter restrictions would be put on prayer groups and marches because of this, making it even harder to reach these mothers. And then what mother would want to listen to people who are trying to kill her.

Please look at the whole picture before you ramble on about going against what Jesus has taught.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='prose' date='Apr 12 2006, 11:32 AM']Haven't we seen this poll like 10 times in the last 2 weeks?
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exactly what i was thinking

[Tarcisius]

[quote]I'm sorry but maybe you can show in the new testament especially in acts and the epistles where christians used violent force to stop injustice. I can't remember any. Oh yeah I think it is because Jesus told Peter "you live by the sword, you die by the sword". Afterall Peter was defending an innocent life. Prayer which is lead by the Spirit is more powerful than any weapon or act of violence man can use. Otherwise Jesus would of said to use a catapult to move the mountain into the sea instead of faith.

Please look at the whole picture before you ramble on about going against what Jesus has taught.[/quote]

Are you saying it would be wrong to shoot a man that was about to stab my son?
I dont think any Priest would think so.

Why should we not place the same value on the innocent life of the unborn as our own children.

[quote]It is also true that violence brings about retaliation and revenge; therefore, If we were to get violent with these abortionists you would see a push for more choice and more baby killing like never before. Saving one life would actually result in taking many more. Also tighter restrictions would be put on prayer groups and marches because of this, making it even harder to reach these mothers. [/quote]

This is a bit farfetched I think. "im gonna go get an abortion because that guy shot a doctor in kentucky" that doest seem very likely to me. More likely to me might be "man those Catholics are really acting like they believe fetuses are people, maybe i should think about this more seriously." although, none of this matters as the reaction of others is not a good enough reason to do the wrong thing.

If Catholics started shooting abortion doctors at a high rate
1) doctors would become to expensive to insure
2)doctors would be afraid to become abortionists
3) innocent lives would be saved

[quote]And then what mother would want to listen to people who are trying to kill her.[/quote]

I am not advocating the killing of the mothers, that would be rediculous.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Tarcisius' date='Apr 12 2006, 08:20 PM']I am not advocating the killing of the mothers, that would be rediculous.
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I'm not advocating anything at this point, but why not? If it would be okay to whack the doc's why not the mom's? They are the one's who want the abortion in the first place... If mom's won't listen to people who are trying to kill them, why would the doc's listen?

[dairygirl4u2c]

I agree maybe declaring war is only going to cause more harm than good. You may have that point. But ultimately you have not made your point that the war is wrong based on Jesus or the bible.
Also, this is a hypothetical situation, since you obviously forgot.

[quote]I'm sorry but maybe you can show in the new testament especially in acts and the epistles where christians used violent force to stop injustice. I can't remember any. Oh yeah I think it is because Jesus told Peter "you live by the sword, you die by the sword". Afterall Peter was defending an innocent life. Prayer which is lead by the Spirit is more powerful than any weapon or act of violence man can use. Otherwise Jesus would of said to use a catapult to move the mountain into the sea instead of faith. [/quote]

Also please explain how declaring such a war as essentially described is different than a just war.
What about self defense which seems to be taught as okay when Jesus says to turn the other cheek.
What about the fact that it's morally licit to execute some criminals in the CC.
What about
[quote]Are you saying it would be wrong to shoot a man that was about to stab my son?
I dont think any Priest would think so.[/quote]

Maybe Catholic theology is wrong. Or maybe you're wrong. Please respond to each of those points. Your rationales are absurd.

[prose]

[quote]What about self defense which seems to be taught as okay when Jesus says to turn the other cheek. [/quote]

How is that self-defense?

[Tarcisius]

[quote]I'm not advocating anything at this point, but why not? If it would be okay to whack the doc's why not the mom's? They are the one's who want the abortion in the first place... If mom's won't listen to people who are trying to kill them, why would the doc's listen?
[/quote]

are you being serious????? shooting the doctors is not about revenge or punishment, it is solely about stopping the murder of a child. Shooting the mother would obviously kill said child....

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]What about self defense which seems to be taught as okay when Jesus says to turn the other cheek.

How is that self-defense?[/quote]

I didn't make myself clear. Self defense is considered okay by the CC. Yet Jesus said turn the other cheek. Obviously either one is wrong or neither is wrong and there's a way to reconcile them. Most likely the latter.

fyi.. I know I wasn't clear, but if you look at the flow of my ideas, you'll see my shorthand lack of explanation flows with demonstrating something considered okay by the CC as "opposed" to something considered wrong by the bible.

[stbernardLT]

I'm sorry but until I hear the church say that our pro-life needs to take on violence I will not advocate it. I can tell you looking at crucifix to day on Good Friday I wonder WWJD. I can't imagine him camped in out in a vacant building with a sniper rifle about to unload rounds on some doctors. Or maybe we should just represent Him in certain instances. Jesus has never advocated violence, NEVER.

YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE CATHECISM IS FLAWED.
Shooting these doctors in no way falls under the self-defense theory, or even the just war theory. At the ed of the discussion on the fifth commandment in the Cathecism the church says that we must seek a better way if there is a more peaceful way. Think about it we all unload on the doctors end up with life in prison and who is left to lead the push. Sort term solution (maybe) long term solution definitly not. This isn't about one secluded situation of self defense, this is about a problem that stretches around the world and for years to come, what we do now will greatly effect what is done later. Killing doctor will not change laws it will only force the government to put harsher ones on Pro-Lifers. If you don't think the pro-choice group will retaliate, you're in denial.

As far as the babies, yes it is horribly sad that their lives are being taken and I agree something needs to be done. But I know that going this route might save a few babies now but we will lose more ground and more babies will die in the long run. Wars are fought on strategy not blind emotion.

Oh yeah it doesn't take much for a mother to go to another clinic if her doctors been killed.

And killing the mother, wouldn't you be killing the baby also.(as I said, not well thought out.)