ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

[Krush2k2]

As a Catholic do you think the illegal immigrants should be granted amnesty above people who have waited years, or sent back to Mexico? Do you agree with the California cardinal?

[toledo_jesus]

As a Catholic I think we should care for the people who are here. As an American, I think that the government should stay out of telling churches who to help. Further, I agree with the Cardinal to a point, but I don't think that advocating the breaking of the law is all that good...prevent it from becoming a law first. Then if you fail at that see what you have to do to fulfill your more important obligation to Christ.

[Sojourner]

I think our immigration system has been in dire need of reform for a very long time.

I think it does not adequately meet the economic demands for low-skill labor that we currently have or are projected to have.

I think it is right and just that illegal aliens be given a means of gaining legal residency, and a path through which citizenship should be attained. This does not have to happen at the expense of people who have been waiting for years.

I think NOT giving illegal aliens a means of gaining legal status is a serious national security risk as well as a risk in other areas (i.e., illegal aliens cannot get driver's licenses and therefore cannot get insurance).

I think laws that criminalize common decency are unjust and should be opposed.

I think the idea that we can deport 11 million undocumented immigrants is prohibitively expensive and we should not focus our enforcement efforts in this area.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 5 2006, 11:40 PM']I think our immigration system has been in dire need of reform for a very long time. [/quote]I agree![quote]I think it does not adequately meet the economic demands for low-skill labor that we currently have or are projected to have. [/quote]I'm extremely uncomfortable with that statement. It makes me think of importing rented mules. Low skill labor needs in the US should be an opportunity for immigrants to come to America and feed their families. Forcing employers to follow labor laws in low skilled positions would increase pay. Part of the enforcement is to make sure all workers have a legal means of redress and notifying Law Enforcement of illegal emloyer conduct.[quote]I think it is right and just that illegal aliens be given a means of gaining legal residency, and a path through which citizenship should be attained. This does not have to happen at the expense of people who have been waiting for years. [/quote]Again, agreed, with following expansion. This SHOULD not happen at the expense of those who are attempting to do it legally AND SHOULD not be at the expense of those who have been here for years without breaking further laws.[quote]I think NOT giving illegal aliens a means of gaining legal status is a serious national security risk as well as a risk in other areas (i.e., illegal aliens cannot get driver's licenses and therefore cannot get insurance). [/quote]Again agreed. I would add that not anly is it a serious security risk, it's morally wrong as it creates de-facto, 3rd class people. Practically slaves, less than indentured servants.[quote]I think laws that criminalize common decency are unjust and should be opposed. [/quote]Again, I agree 100%. I don't agree in practical application it would create a problem that is as serious as the above issues.[quote]I think the idea that we can deport 11 million undocumented immigrants is prohibitively expensive and we should not focus our enforcement efforts in this area.
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[/quote]I don't think anyone is taking seriously any proposal to deport 11 million people. Or even 5 million people. I think that enforcement of further illegals is VERY necessary to be fair to the immigrants that have been here sucessfully working for years. Let's not add to the problem until we can correct the problems for the people already here.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Krush2k2' date='Apr 6 2006, 12:12 AM']As a Catholic do you think the illegal immigrants should be granted amnesty above people who have waited years, or sent back to Mexico? Do you agree with the California cardinal?
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[/quote]


A clarification of Mahoney's position. He is not arguing for amnesty his concern is this (from the NY Times)

[quote]The cardinal's focus of concern is H.R. 4437, a bill sponsored by James Sensenbrenner Jr. of Wisconsin and Peter King of New York. This grab bag legislation, which was recently passed by the House, would expand the definition of "alien smuggling" in a way that could theoretically include working in a soup kitchen, driving a friend to a bus stop or caring for a neighbor's baby. Similar language appears in legislation being considered by the Senate this week. [/quote]

[Sojourner]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:01 AM']I'm extremely uncomfortable with that statement.  It makes me think of importing rented mules.  Low skill labor needs in the US should be an opportunity for immigrants to come to America and feed their families.  Forcing employers to follow labor laws in low skilled positions would increase pay.  Part of the enforcement is to make sure all workers have a legal means of redress and notifying Law Enforcement of illegal emloyer conduct.
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[/quote]
I understand your discomfort. However, I included that statement because in point of fact the Bureau of Labor Statistics is projecting that 48 percent of all job openings (somewhere in the neighborhood of 27 million positions) between 2002 and 2012 "are expected to be held by workers who have a high school diploma or less education."

12.5 percent of native-born adults age 25 and older lacked a high school diploma in 2003, compared to 32.8 percent of foreign-born adults. (that number's from Luke J. Larsen's "The Foreign-Born Population" as quoted in the July 2005 issue of "Immigration Policy In Focus.")

Our current law allows for only 5,000 non-skilled immigrants each year.

While of course we're talking about living, breathing, loveable human beings, we've also got to acknowledge that we NEED these living, breathing, loveable human beings as workers in order to sustain economic growth.

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:01 AM']I don't think anyone is taking seriously any proposal to deport 11 million people. Or even 5 million people. I think that enforcement of further illegals is VERY necessary to be fair to the immigrants that have been here sucessfully working for years. Let's not add to the problem until we can correct the problems for the people already here.
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[/quote]
I agree there's gotta be enforcement. But that alone isn't going to solve the problems we have. I included this statement because of the sense I've gotten from a couple of PMers that they'd like to see everyone illegal be deported.

[Didacus]

The perfect world would have only a single nation without any borders.

Is a border a 'just law'?

And long live the papacy!











Silly americans...

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Apr 6 2006, 08:45 AM']The perfect world would have only a single nation without any borders.

Is a border a 'just law'?

And long live the papacy!
Silly americans...
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[/quote]
I tend towards favoring open borders myself ... but that kind of liberal think should come as no surprise.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 6 2006, 06:42 AM']I understand your discomfort. However, I included that statement because in point of fact the Bureau of Labor Statistics is projecting that 48 percent of all job openings (somewhere in the neighborhood of 27 million positions) between 2002 and 2012 "are expected to be held by workers who have a high school diploma or less education."

12.5 percent of native-born adults age 25 and older lacked a high school diploma in 2003, compared to 32.8 percent of foreign-born adults. (that number's from Luke J. Larsen's "The Foreign-Born Population" as quoted in the July 2005 issue of "Immigration Policy In Focus.")

Our current law allows for only 5,000 non-skilled immigrants each year.

While of course we're talking about living, breathing, loveable human beings, we've also got to acknowledge that we NEED these living, breathing, loveable human beings as workers in order to sustain economic growth. [right][snapback]937496[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]I understand and agree the US has lot's of job openings that don't require college educated workers that aren't being filled by US workers. Part of the problem is the pay for some of these low skill jobs are being artifically kept low for both American and illegal workers because of the plentiful illegal workers that are exploited. Part of the problem is the current urban American cultural disdain for physical labor. A job that required physical effort is viewed as worthy for 'illegal immigrants', 'wets', 's.o.b.'s (south of the borders, anyone south of the Rio, including Central & South Americans). Black, white, yellow, or brown, male or female, they pretty much have to have grown up in a rural area to not have the mindset any job that requires sweat caused by physical exertion is 'dummy' work.
Part of that perception is rooted in the idea that illegal workers are 'dummies' because they pick fruit for pennies. The reality is, most are trapped in position to be exploited.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Krush2k2' date='Apr 5 2006, 10:12 PM'] do you think the illegal immigrants should be granted amnesty above people who have waited years[right][snapback]937376[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

People who obey the rules should have a higher priority over those who don't, otherwise what is the point of obeying the rules?

[mariahLVzJP2]

A little off topic, but in my opinion calling them illegal ALIENS is degrading.

Edited April 6, 2006 by mariahLVzJP2

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:45 AM']The perfect world would have only a single nation without any borders.
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[/quote]
The perfect wold doesn't exist. A Utopia is unachievable.

[quote]Is a border a 'just law'?[/quote]

Why yes, yes it is. Btw, JPII did not like immigration. He thought it robbed the mother country of its chance to fix its problems

[quote]Silly americans...[/quote]

Please, you don't have 11million people in your country that broke the law to get there

[quote name='mariahLVzJP2' date='Apr 6 2006, 10:45 AM']A little off topic, but in my opinion calling them illegal ALIENS is degrading.
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[/quote]
No its not, it is what they are.

[Era Might]

[quote name='mariahLVzJP2' date='Apr 6 2006, 11:45 AM']A little off topic, but in my opinion calling them illegal ALIENS is degrading.
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[/quote]

"Alien" just means someone from another land. It's a biblical word, although today we associate it with Martians from outer space.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

I think a big problem is that border security and illegal immigration are often lumped into being the same problem. I support securing the borders and providing some way for getting illegals documented and making companies obey labor laws. The border needs to be secure to keep terrorists out and to force those who do want to immigrate to go through safe channels. Immigrants should be documented to make sure companies are obeying laws. Companies that hire what is virtually slave labor should not be rewarded with greater profit margins because other companies want to do things the legal and ethical way.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 6 2006, 11:25 AM']I understand and agree the US has lot's of job openings that don't require college educated workers that aren't being filled by US workers.  Part of the problem is the pay for some of these low skill jobs are being artifically kept low for both American and illegal workers because of the plentiful illegal workers that are exploited.  Part of the problem is the current urban American cultural disdain for physical labor.  A job that required physical effort is viewed as worthy for 'illegal immigrants', 'wets', 's.o.b.'s (south of the borders, anyone south of the Rio, including Central & South Americans).  Black, white, yellow, or brown, male or female, they pretty much have to have grown up in a rural area to not have the mindset any job that requires sweat caused by physical exertion is 'dummy' work.
Part of that perception is rooted in the idea that illegal workers are 'dummies' because they pick fruit for pennies.  The reality is, most are trapped in position to be exploited.
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I totally agree with that.

Interestingly, I hear from our local builders association that skilled trades (plumbers, electricians, roofers, etc.) have been having a great deal of trouble recruiting youngsters to come into the trade -- and some of those jobs pay quite well. It's an intriguing problem, because Indiana, like many other states, has been working hard to shift out of a manufacturing-based economy, and has been emphasizing job growth in areas that require higher education (life sciences, for example) and not encouraging kids to pursue trades. That game plan isn't going to serve us well in the long run. It's that same "dummy" mentality that you're talking about.