Notre Dame will allow "Vagina Monologues"

[shortnun]

I came across [b][url="http://amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2006/04/the_decision.html"]this link on Amy Welborn's blog[/url][/b] and thought people might be interested. I've yet to read it all myself.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 7 2006, 12:11 PM']I love how you feel free to put words into my mouth. {note: That is sarcasm}[/quote]
I am not putting words in anyone's mouth. I am simply noting the logical extremes of the line of thinking that Catholic institutions must host and support what is sinful and degrading in modern culture in order to "engage it."

[quote]Studies show a majority of graduates of small solidly orthodox Catholic “colleges” have their heads buried in the “sand.” [/quote]
Thanks for the childish and pointless insult, which I will choose to ignore.

[quote]So, you’ve been able to poll people in heaven, then? You’re saying that the majority of college graduates who made it through the pearly gates went to “genuinely Catholic schools such as Christendom, FUS, etc.”? Because I know a lot of people from conservative backgrounds and liberal backgrounds alike who have struggled with their faith. Some have come back; some haven’t, but I pray they will.

I think there are good things that can come of training kids in a conservative, supportive environment. I also think there are good things that can come by creating an atmosphere where dialogue about difficult subjects is supported and encouraged, and where different voices are respected. But then I’m sure that’s just so much liberal claptrap. Listening to what people say without jumping all over them and putting words in their mouths!  How awful! [/quote]
A 2001 survey from the Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA backs me up with sobering figures concerning "Catholic" universities. [url="http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/hudson/collegesurvey.html"](Article here)[/url]
My parents are involved closely in Catholic education, and we know MANY Christendom alumni. Almost all are still solidly practicing Catholics. I speak from personal experience and know very well what I am talking about.
I am not condemning anyone for choosing to go to a secularized Catholic school, and am aware that there are those who keep the faith through such hostile environments. In fact, I commend them. I do condemn, however, those "Catholic" colleges in which students tend to lose the Faith, rather than be strengthened in it. More on this in the next post . . .

[quote]So ... you’re saying that the students who would choose to watch these things are a lost cause? That we shouldn’t try to engage them in dialogue about what they think? We should just preach to them the error of their ways, and then wash our hands of them if they don’t listen?[/quote]
No, nobody's a lost cause. Anybody can be brought back through Christ's grace. [b]But because Christ can save sinners, that does not mean Catholic education should support immoral filth!
One does not convert sinners by indulging their sin![/b] That much should be obvious to any true Catholic!

[quote]If they’re going to watch them anyway, why not watch them in a setting in which the Truth can be presented as well as carp they’re going to watch anyway? If college is such a tender age at which to form people’s consciences and core beliefs, why not present people who would otherwise not hear it with authentic Catholicism, and authentically Christian take on the play or movie they just watched? [/quote]
That is a load of liberal claptrap! That's the same mentality that says, "since kids are going to fornicate anyway, let's hand out free condoms in the schools and teach them 'safe sex'."
A true Catholic education should not involve indulging and condoning that which is sinful, in order to preach morality. To use Theoketos' example, it would be ludicrous to say that Catholic schools should show students pornos in order to teach them that pornography and immorality is wrong. (With the added rationale that "they'll just be doing anyway, why not have them watch porn in a setting where the truth can be taught"?
I did not need to see obscene movies or plays to learn what acts are immoral. That argument is downright absurd.

[quote]For starters, they’ve earned the right to actually critique the play or film they’ve just watched, which puts them in a position to actually be able to build relationship and dialogue with people they might not agree with. I know that’s a foreign concept to you, but lots of people do find it appealing to hear others’ viewpoints and try to understand where they’re coming from. They find it can be a useful tool in “evangelization” and “ministering to others.”[/quote]
I've heard plenty about this silly and disgusting "play" and on these boards JudgedByGod has read it and Photosynthesis (a former radical feminist) has seen and participated in it. Both now find it totally disgusting. Talk to Photo about it if you want some good perspective.

So one must indulge in that which is sinful in order to critique it or be able to minister to sinners?
Christ was utterly without sin, yet He was able to call sinners to Himself quite effectively.
Must Catholic schools also show porn or host sexual orgies in order that students might "understand others' viewpoints" and "dialogue effectively"? Such a mentality is contrary to that of all of the saints.

I'll be sure to pray for you, Abby. I truly think you need it.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 7 2006, 12:11 PM']Studies show a majority of graduates of small solidly orthodox Catholic “colleges” have their heads buried in the “sand.”
So, you’ve been able to poll people in heaven, then? You’re saying that the majority of college graduates who made it through the pearly gates went to “genuinely Catholic schools such as Christendom, FUS, etc.”? Because I know a lot of people from conservative backgrounds and liberal backgrounds alike who have struggled with their faith. Some have come back; some haven’t, but I pray they will.

I think there are good things that can come of training kids in a conservative, supportive environment. I also think there are good things that can come by creating an atmosphere where dialogue about difficult subjects is supported and encouraged, and where different voices are respected. But then I’m sure that’s just so much liberal claptrap. [right][snapback]939189[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


[b]Are Your Kids Safe In A Catholic College?[/b]

by Deal Hudson, Editor of Crisis Magazine


Let me warn you up front: You're not going to like this one bit.

Last time I wrote to you, I mentioned the great success of the March for Life. To me, one of its most successful aspects was the huge crowd of young people it attracted. The event was a family affair, but more than anything you got the feeling that the teens in the crowd were going to be the torchbearers of the pro-life movement.

Well, if a recent study is to be believed, many of those same pro-life teens who go to Catholic colleges won't come out that way.

The Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA compared results of a survey administered to college freshmen in 1997 with a survey given to these same students as graduating seniors in 2001.

The results? Students attending Catholic colleges are more likely to increase in support for legalized abortion and same-sex marriages than students attending private four-year colleges. See for yourself:

[b]* After four years at a Catholic college, student support for abortion increased from 46.3 percent to 60.1 percent, a sharper increase than among students at private colleges (51 percent to 62.2 percent).

* With regards to same-sex marriage, Catholic student support jumped from 57.3 percent to 73.5 percent (80.4 percent among women). Students at private schools saw less of an increase, from 55.7 percent to 67.3 percent.

* Catholic college students increasingly agreed with the following statement after four years at school: "If two people really like each other, it's all right for them to have sex even if they've known each other for only a very short time." Agreement rose from 32.8 percent to 54.3 percent (68.6 percent among men), compared to only 51.8 at four-year colleges (62.5 percent of men).

* The number of students professing to be Roman Catholics at a Catholic college dropped from 73.4 percent to 68.8 percent. At the same time, students professing no religion rose from 6 percent to 10.9 percent. [/b]
What's happening here? Parents used to worry that Catholic colleges would be no better for their children than regular four-year colleges. Now it seems that some Catholic schools might actually be worse!

[b]Certainly this isn't the case at all Catholic schools. Places like Thomas Aquinas, Ave Maria, Christendom, Steubenville, and the University of Dallas all maintain a strong Catholic identity, and parents would have little to fear if their child attended these schools. [/b]
But this is only a handful of smaller schools in a much larger field of colleges and universities across the nation. The fact that a majority of them can't be trusted to deliver a quality Catholic education is unsettling.

To tell you the truth, it really bothers me. My own daughter Hannah will start her college search in a couple of years, and it looks like her options for a good Catholic school are shrinking. There's plenty of room for diversity, but how much diversity can there really be if a majority of the schools can't be trusted?

First, there was the problem with professors at Catholic colleges not seeking a mandatum from their bishops saying that their teaching would be in line with Church doctrine. The deadline for acquiring the mandatum has come and gone, and still many professors have refused to comply.

Then more recently, we learned that some Catholic colleges were providing links to Planned Parenthood from their Web sites. Most of the links have been taken down now but only as a result of media attention and pressure from outraged Catholics.

Many people argued that these approaches were pluralistic and allowed for a freer range of thought on college campuses, but it seems to have had only a negative effect on the minds of the students. These are undoubtedly some of their most formative years, and the reality that they might not be safe in a Catholic institution -- even less safe than at a secular four-year college -- is outrageous.

Unfortunately, there's no surefire way to tell if the school your child is attending is up to par or not. Sometimes the school's reputation precedes itself, but sometimes that's not enough. The school might have a very strong president, but if the professors aren't in line, then the administration will make little difference. Having strong professors is a better sign of health, but even then, a "progressively-minded" administration could end up stifling their good intentions.

The best way to protect your children is to arm them with a solid foundation in Catholic morality and theology BEFORE they go to college. You simply cannot assume that the "Catholic" college they're heading off to will form them in the faith. More often than not, they won't.

College is often the first real test of a young person's values and integrity. Sadly, we can no longer be confident that Catholic colleges will help him pass that test.

[url="http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/hudson/collegesurvey.html"]http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/huds...legesurvey.html[/url]

Oh well, I suppose all us grads of Christendom, et al, just live in a bubble and have are heads buried in the sand, having missed out on such valuable educational experiences as "The Vagina Monologues."

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Apr 7 2006, 04:56 PM']AND I expect way better from you to argue for the propagation of a play with out reading it. YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THAT.
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I know, and I apologize. I typically try to have at least read or seen something before offering an opinion on it. I should have done so in this case. You and JudgedByGod aren't the only ones to have brought this to my attention ... as such, I'll refrain from further comment on this thread.

I am thoroughly chastened.

[crazymaine catholic]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 7 2006, 11:27 PM']

I know, and I apologize. I typically try to have at least read or seen something before offering an opinion on it. I should have done so in this case. You and JudgedByGod aren't the only ones to have brought this to my attention ... as such, I'll refrain from further comment on this thread.

I am thoroughly chastened.


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that's very noble of you sojourner. i admire you admitting that.

[iheartjp2]

Okay, what I'd like to know is if there actually is reason to believe that showing the Vagina Monologues would make ND a better college and help people grow closer to Christ in the heart of his church, which is what, I think, we already established that a Catholic educational institution is for, right?

All I've gotten from this entire argument are some people saying that showing this play would be disgraceful and even sinful. Others have said that it opens others up to dialogue, whatever that means to you, and that toeing a borderline isn't crossing it. Well of course toeing a borderline isn't crossing it, but does it help you grow closer to Christ? Does it help others grow closer to Christ? Is getting as far as you can to the edge of a cliff without falling off JUST BECAUSE IF YOU KEEP YOUR BALANCE AND DON'T STEP OFF, YOU WON'T GO OVER a smart thing to do in the first place simply because you're putting yourself at risk?

One thing that people keep bringing up is dialogue. Dialogue is two parties in conversation, often used to describe two parties who are in some form of conflict who are trying to come to a consensus by means of discussion. There are people here that claim that the VM's are a good source of dialogue or basically, a good conversation starter. Alright, so then, for what? What would you be discussing? Would you be trying to lead this person to Christ, because if they're a fan and you're a fan, yet you're trying to explain something to them that would somehow fundamentally conflict with what they just saw, how does it makes sense that you're both fans? You would basically be saying "this here is okay, it's not the same thing as SIN". It's kinda clear that there's a difference between dialoge and contraversy. The latter is just what people who are pushing for this play are trying to stir up. All they want to do is rock the boat. If they had any concern for spreading the faith or the salvation and protection of souls at all, they wouldn't consider showing this, especially at a Catholic institution. Seriously, people have been saying this over and over and some people have just been brushing it aside as if it were hogwash. Really, it makes sense.


Looking at it plainly, it has nothing to do with how comfortable you feel with your sexuality or whether it's pornorgraphic or not, or whether or not it opens people up to dialogue. It's a Catholic college, there shouldn't be two parties in conversation, even to come to a common agreement in the first place. The church is one as Christ is one, and therefore, since this issue branches so far into what the Church has ALWAYS taught to be fundamental concerning faith and morals, there shouldn't be two sides of the issue. Sure, it MAY have pros and cons, but when you weigh them both together, I think we can come to a consesus pretty quickly. We never even needed to go into details about the issue because it was already plain and simple. It's not about liberal or conservative, it's not about feeling comfortable with your sexuality or being able to go to a contraversial play and not have guilt about it or anything like that. Going into all of those issues and poking around with it doesn't get us anywhere. Plainly and simply if it goes against the fundamental (fundamental meaning FOUNDATIONAL) teachings of Christ church OF WHICH YOU (MEANING ANYONE IN THIS DISCUSSION) CLAIMS ALLEGIENCE, then it shouldn't be about that at all. It goes against it therefore you should stay away from it. When you say the act of contrition during confession, you PROMISE to avoid the (near) occasion of sin (under the risk of receiving absolution invalidly, otherwise you actually want to change). Well, frankly, participating in something that just goes against what the Church teaches (forget what YOU stand for, because if anyone claims to be a Catholic, they should live it out fully), you are sinning, and engaging others in this is leading others into the same trap that you're about to fall into.

Having said all this, just think about it. Just what WOULD Irenaus, or Polycarp, or Ignatius, or Justin Martyr, or Cyril, or even Johannes Paulus Magnus himself say about this? Heck, what [i]DID[/i] any of these holy men, or even Jesus himself say about this? (The last one's kind of a trick question because Jesus said to his Peter and his apostles, "he who hears YOU, hears ME".)

It just so turns out that people in authority in the Church have taught against the horrific display of sexuality, God's wonderous gift to us, time and time again, even since the Church's beginning. Some people just choose to defy them. I certainly wouldn't find an image of a red-faced Ignatius walking down the road to my town, simply to excommunicate me very comforting.

So seriously, what IS so good about the Vagina Monologues?

[iheartjp2]

[quote]So, you’ve been able to poll people in heaven, then? You’re saying that the majority of college graduates who made it through the pearly gates went to “genuinely Catholic schools such as Christendom, FUS, etc.”? Because I know a lot of people from conservative backgrounds and liberal backgrounds alike who have struggled with their faith. Some have come back; some haven’t, but I pray they will.

I think there are good things that can come of training kids in a conservative, supportive environment. I also think there are good things that can come by creating an atmosphere where dialogue about difficult subjects is supported and encouraged, and where different voices are respected. But then I’m sure that’s just so much liberal claptrap. Listening to what people say without jumping all over them and putting words in their mouths!  How awful!
[/quote]

I don't believe that anyone mentioned viewers' odds of getting to heaven. All they said was that a solidly orthodox Catholic college is what protected them from being bombarded with all sorts of filth while they were still being formed in their faith. It's as simple as that. As others have said before, showing something that in itself goes against the teachings of the Church, for whatever reason, is not the right means to go about engaging people in dialogue and discussion of difficult subjects. People can have that without showing the play, and that's not even really the point of showing it in the first place. Fr. Jenkins only said that he would have it shown "in a Catholic context". That doesn't mean that it's being used as an evangelization tool or a simple conversation starter, as some would have us think. It's basically being cleaned up a little. Are any lines being cut or modified? If not, then it's basically what I could go and see at Hill Auditorium in A2, MI, where I live. "Catholic context" or not, it's just not a good thing to show in the first place.

[quote]So ... you’re saying that the students who would choose to watch these things are a lost cause?   [/quote]

Something that gets to be very annoying in an argument is when someone starts a rebuttal saying, "Well, basically you're saying..." or "So you're saying...", and then twisting the person's words or arguements in a fashion that would allow them to use an argument that doesn't even address what they were ACTUALLY saying. Case in point, the quote above. The first few lines of that quote had nothing to do with what the last person even said, yet they were willing to head-butt them over whether they thought that people who didn't go to a small Catholic college that would usually cost a fortune would get to heaven! So please, play fair...

It's quite obvious that they weren't saying that a viewer of the VM's or anything like it is a lost cause. I think we need to take a good look at who's actually putting words in who's mouth.

[quote]That we shouldn’t try to engage them in dialogue about what they think?[/quote]

We've already basically establish, either that or it's been said (whether or not you agree), that we DON'T need the VM's to engage people in dialogue concerning what's in it or even things beyond what's in it. It actually happens all the time, believe it or not. It's clear that some people have blinders on their eyes and are actually refusing to see the light of reason here.

[quote]We should just preach to them the error of their ways, and then wash our hands of them if they don’t listen?[/quote]

Well, frankly, that is what we're saying because quite frankly, it's BETTER than showing the play in a "Catholic context". What do you think of the priest who speaks openly about the teaching of the Church concerning what goes on in our world nowadays and doesn't provide visual material to show his congregants what actually [i]does[/i] go on in the world today? It would actually be rather odd for a priest to do that. Besides that, what of all the wonderful Catholic speakers and apologists who go all over the country, even the world to talk to people about morality and Catholicism? Do [i]they[/i] take visual aids with them and subject those people that they're trying to minister to to the filth that's out there? I don't think so, and even STILL do they get some pretty good "dialogue" going on concerning their talks. It just doesn't make sense to go to such extreme measures as even putting someone in danger of turning away just to get them to turn towards the light.


[quote]If they’re going to watch them anyway, why not watch them in a setting in which the Truth can be presented as well as carp they’re going to watch anyway? If college is such a tender age at which to form people’s consciences and core beliefs, why not present people who would otherwise not hear it with authentic Catholicism, and authentically Christian take on the play or movie they just watched? [/quote]

Because they can be presented with light and truth without the darkness on the side, that's why, plain and simple. It's not our job to give them a blow by blow account of what goes on in the world because chances are, them being college students, that they know, and even some go as far as to participate in it. Believe me, they don't need to see something on stage in order to know what it is or how wrong it is to do that thing because when someone even mentions it, it's possible to form a perfect mental image of that very thing being down without even having seen it.

Just face it, showing the Vagina Monologues just wouldn't do any good when you're going to teach against what it stands for anyway. Just a waste of money, a waste of time, and a waste of souls to be exposed and even possibly succombed to the Prince of the Air himself.

Edited April 8, 2006 by iheartjp2

[amandaplus5]

I conpletely, 100% agree. I'm not even going to try to add anything else, because you worded that perfectly and I don't want to mess it up

[Deeds]

My mum asked me recently if I wanted to go to a production of it with her. Bless her, I don't think she had any idea what it's about, other than a sort of "woman power" thing.

I haven't read it, so maybe I shouldn't comment on it. But I have heard a lot about it and if my impressions are correct, despite being an evil left-wing liberal, I would ban it primarily because it's anti-men - imagine the outcry if a male version took place - although also on reasons of taste. There's a huge difference between being ashamed of a body part and being comfortable chanting its name at the top of your voice - there's a reason we call them "private parts" (for both sexes).

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 7 2006, 09:27 PM']

I know, and I apologize. I typically try to have at least read or seen something before offering an opinion on it. I should have done so in this case. You and JudgedByGod aren't the only ones to have brought this to my attention ... as such, I'll refrain from further comment on this thread.

I am thoroughly chastened.


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Your honesty and humility is refreshing.

God bless.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 8 2006, 06:37 PM']Your honesty and humility is refreshing.

God bless.
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Speaking of, I'm curious Soc

Have you seen the play?

[Socrates]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 8 2006, 06:50 PM']Speaking of, I'm curious Soc

Have you seen the play?
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No, but I've read about it numerous times from reliable sources, including people who have read it on these boards.
And I do not think they are all part of some vast right-wing conspiracy of liars.
While you can quibble about whether or not it qualifies as "pornography," I have seen absolutely nothing to convince me that this play has any moral, spiritual, intellectual, are artistic merit, or that it has any place as part of a Catholic education.

If you wish to defend its supposed merits, you can take this up with any of the people on these boards who have read or seen it and have found it degrading and immoral.

I do not wish to waste more time quarreling with you over this.

[kateri05]

i've seen it.

its trash and glorifies lesbian child molestation (an older lesbian "takes under her wing" a 15 or 16 year old girl and teaches her to "love" her vagina) and masturbation (learning to love your own vagina) and premarital sex (thats the part my roommate had )

and i can't BELIEVE people are trying to justify its performance at a Catholic school. encouraging sin is not dialoging, its scandalizing the people who aren't informed enough to want to dialogue about it in the first place and a Catholic University should be the last one DOING the scandalizing!

even before being hardcore Catholic, it made me feel ashamed of females, that they would try and pass this off as something beneficial to our sex. go read "the priviledge of being a woman" by alice von hildebrand and THEN you'll really love your vagina and won't feel the need to shout about it from the rooftops. modesty is indeed a lost virtue.

Edited April 9, 2006 by kateri05

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 8 2006, 10:08 PM']No, but I've read about it numerous times from reliable sources, including people who have read it on these boards.
And I do not think they are all part of some vast right-wing conspiracy of liars.
While you can quibble about whether or not it qualifies as "pornography," I have seen absolutely nothing to convince me that this play has any moral, spiritual, intellectual, are artistic merit, or that it has any place as part of a Catholic education.

If you wish to defend its supposed merits, you can take this up with any of the people on these boards who have read or seen it and have found it degrading and immoral.

I do not wish to waste more time quarreling with you over this.
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Its intriguing

You've had a couple pretty long rants about something that you haven't seen and taken third hand information on it.

Edited April 9, 2006 by jaime

[MC Just]

[quote name='kateri05' date='Apr 8 2006, 08:11 PM']i've seen it.

its trash and glorifies lesbian child molestation (an older lesbian "takes under her wing" a 15 or 16 year old girl and teaches her to "love" her vagina) and masturbation (learning to love your own vagina) and premarital sex (thats the part my roommate had ) 

and i can't BELIEVE people are trying to justify its performance at a Catholic school.  encouraging sin is not dialoging, its scandalizing the people who aren't informed enough to want to dialogue about it in the first place and a Catholic University should be the last one DOING the scandalizing!

even before being hardcore Catholic, it made me feel ashamed of females, that they would try and pass this off as something beneficial to our sex.  go read "the priviledge of being a woman" by alice von hildebrand and THEN you'll really love your vagina and won't feel the need to shout about it from the rooftops.  modesty is indeed a lost virtue.
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sounds terribly sickening. God help notre dame. God curse the liberals.