Notre Dame will allow "Vagina Monologues"

[Theoketos]

[qutoe]For starters, they’ve earned the right to actually critique the play or film they’ve just watched, which puts them in a position to actually be able to build relationship and dialogue with people they might not agree with...(I purposely edited out persoanl attacks)...lots of people do find it appealing to hear others’ viewpoints and try to understand where they’re coming from. They find it can be a useful tool in “evangelization” and “ministering to others.” [/quote]

What you say is true and necessary, about hearing and critiquing opposing positions, however, there is no means to critique this play.

What would you say about a porno being shown, should we all go and hear and see what porno really is? Should we see the sin so we can evangelize it? No, of coarse not, because you know better then that.

Not allowing the VM would not be about blocking out opposing positions, it instead should be about not condoning them. When you allow a play to be shown you condone the morality and the message of the play. The monologues morality is essentially contrary to the moral law and the dignity of the feminine genius.

I would be for a specialized class on the topic, in which students could read them to discuss them. But to engage in the play is not better then watching porno. It may be worse because it is porno in disguise.

Inculturalization is not about sinking down to the level of heathen culture, instead it about bringing the culture up, baptizing it.

Please do not let your dislike of the character Socrates blind you to this.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:29 PM'][quote]For starters, they’ve earned the right to actually critique the play or film they’ve just watched, which puts them in a position to actually be able to build relationship and dialogue with people they might not agree with...(I purposely edited out persoanl attacks)...lots of people do find it appealing to hear others’ viewpoints and try to understand where they’re coming from. They find it can be a useful tool in “evangelization” and “ministering to others.” [/quote]

What you say is true and necessary, about hearing and critiquing opposing positions, however, there is no means to critique this play.

What would you say about a porno being shown, should we all go and hear and see what porno really is? Should we see the sin so we can evangelize it? No, of coarse not, because you know better then that.

Not allowing the VM would not be about blocking out opposing positions, it instead should be about not condoning them. When you allow a play to be shown you condone the morality and the message of the play. The monologues morality is essentially contrary to the moral law and the dignity of the feminine genius.

I would be for a specialized class on the topic, in which students could read them to discuss them. But to engage in the play is not better then watching porno. It may be worse because it is porno in disguise.

Inculturalization is not about sinking down to the level of heathen culture, instead it about bringing the culture up, baptizing it.

Please do not let your dislike of the character Socrates blind you to this.
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Have you seen it?

I haven't, and can't therefore tell you how it compares to pornography. From what I've heard, it's not comparable to pornography. But that's all second- and third-hand information.

[JudgedByGod]

[quote]Have you seen it?

I haven't, and can't therefore tell you how it compares to pornography. From what I've heard, it's not comparable to pornography. But that's all second- and third-hand information.
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You haven't seen it yet you are in such support of it? This doesn't seem to make sense. I think if you saw or read parts of it, you would have a very different opinion. It describes heterosexual and homosexual fornication quite descriptively as well as masturbation. So descriptive, that I refuse to quote it on here. Before you continue to comment on how wonderful of a decision this was, I suggest you read parts of it (but I warn you that it is disgusting).

[amandaplus5]

What amazes me is that this topic is even in the debate section at all. How is the Vagina Monologues beneficial to students? It's bogus to say that it will "open up dialogue." Following that logic, shouldn't Catholic colleges then show movies like Brokeback Mountain? That would certainly open up dialogue.

You do not have to be emersed in the glorification of smut to be educated in the ways of the world and how to defend the faith against that(in fact, all you have to do is turn on the TV and you will get the "ways of the world" and more). This is why people go to Catholic colleges - so they can learn about their faith and the world without being subjected to the unnecessary things. Think about it: Will you be better off after subjecting yourself to the Vagina monologues? Why?

If Catholic colleges allow stuff like the Vagina Monologues, they cease to be different from the secular educational institutions. If you really have a burning desire to see stuff like that, don't go to a Catholic college.

[shortnun]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='Apr 7 2006, 11:31 AM']Edit: btw, this IS Notre Dame after all, so I am not surprised that they decided to go with it. I would have dropped dead from shock if they had shut it down
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It has been shut down by the adminstration in years past. Please reconsider snide remarks about schools that you deem to be be "not Catholic" enough.

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:05 PM']I haven't, and can't therefore tell you how it compares to pornography. From what I've heard, it's not comparable to pornography. But that's all second- and third-hand information.
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It is not pornography. I have seen the original version performed, as well as adaptations.

[quote name='amandaplus5' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:56 PM']What amazes me is that this topic is even in the debate section at all.  How is the Vagina Monologues beneficial to students?  It's bogus to say that it will "open up dialogue."  Following that logic, shouldn't Catholic colleges then show movies like Brokeback Mountain?  That would certainly open up dialogue.

You do not have to be emersed in the glorification of smut to be educated in the ways of the world and how to defend the faith against that(in fact, all you have to do is turn on the TV and you will get the "ways of the world" and more). This is why people go to Catholic colleges - so they can learn about their faith and the world without being subjected to the unnecessary things.  Think about it: Will you be better off after subjecting yourself to the Vagina monologues?  Why?

If Catholic colleges allow stuff like the Vagina Monologues, they cease to be different from the secular educational institutions.  If you really have a burning desire to see stuff like that, don't go to a Catholic college.
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I think it would be perfectly acceptable to show "Brokeback Mountain" at a Catholic college, followed by a forum for discussion. As a matter of fact, it was shown at my undergrad institution, and just this past week in a sexual ethics class at my graduate school (both are Catholic). It has allowed for dialogue.

I went to a Catholic college to learn about my faith and to get an education. I see those things as going hand in hand. And thankfully, the college I graduated from didn't have a sign out front that read "We promise to keep you in a bubble for four years." If it had, I would have run in the opposite direction. And yes, I consider myself having benefited from conversations I've had with men and women in light of seeing the Vagina Monologues.

Showing the VM alone does [b]not [/b]suddenly make a Catholic school a secular one. I have a burning desire to be educated and to know how that impacts my faith. So please, if you don't mind, I'll chose where I go to school and how it pertains to the living out of my faith and the building of the Kingdom of God.

[Jaime]

I'd be extremely curious to know how many folks who object so strongly have seen the play or read it.

[Era Might]

From the desk of Bishop John M. D'Arcy, of the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend:

[quote]At this time of the year, it has been customary for many institutions of higher learning, including, regrettably, Catholic institutions, to present something called, The Vagina Monologues. Alas, even our beloved University of Notre Dame is presenting it again, as it has for the past several years, under the official sponsorship of at least two departments.

The bishop is the teacher within his diocese, bearing special responsibility before God to shed light on moral issues, especially when the souls of young people are involved; not his own light, but the light that comes from the Gospel, from the teachings of Christ and the church. To be sure that I have understood what is at stake here, and conscious of the importance of proper research at all times, but especially when dealing with an institution of higher learning, I have read and studied the text in question.

The Vagina Monologues is offensive to women; it is antithetical to Catholic teaching on the beautiful gift of human sexuality and also to the teachings of the church on the human body relative to its purpose and to its status as a temple of the Holy Spirit. The human body and the human person, in the tradition of the church, must never be seen as an object.

...

I urge Notre Dame to look at the contradiction here, especially in light of its long service to the human person. The consistency which one looks for, and so often finds at Notre Dame, is sorely missing in the decision to present this play.

...

This play violates the truth about women; the truth about sexuality; the truth about male and female, and the truth about the human body.

It is in opposition to the highest understanding of academic freedom. A Catholic university seeks truth. It is never afraid of truth, but it seeks it with respect for both reason and faith. Each gives light and guidance to the other. How has the light coming from faith, or indeed from right reason, been brought to bear on this decision?

[url="http://www.diocesefwsb.org/COMMUNICATIONS/monologues.htm"]http://www.diocesefwsb.org/COMMUNICATIONS/monologues.htm[/url][/quote]

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 7 2006, 01:05 PM']Have you seen it?

I haven't, and can't therefore tell you how it compares to pornography. From what I've heard, it's not comparable to pornography. But that's all second- and third-hand information.
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I have read the text. It is pronographic. To say that is not is either sad laziness, a lie with angenda, ignorance, or all four.

AND I expect way better from you to argue for the propagation of a play with out reading it. YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THAT.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 7 2006, 02:38 PM']I went to a Catholic college to learn about my faith and to get an education. I see those things as going hand in hand. And thankfully, the college I graduated from didn't have a sign out front that read "We promise to keep you in a bubble for four years." If it had, I would have run in the opposite direction. And yes, I consider myself having benefited from conversations I've had with men and women in light of seeing the Vagina Monologues.

[/quote]

Being in a bubble is not what we are talking about. Everytime you assert that you are committing a falacy. Opposing views are not bad, should not be with held by those who are forming themselves.

However, condoning propaganda of this type not presenting fairly opposing views. It is sanctioning them. YOU ARE SANCTIONING SIN.

A Catholic institution must be opened minded, present fairly other sides, but always maintain the transmission of the truth. None of these things happen in the VM.

[quote]Showing the VM alone does [b]not [/b]suddenly make a Catholic school a secular one. I have a burning desire to be educated and to know how that impacts my faith. So please, if you don't mind, I'll chose where I go to school and how it pertains to the living out of my faith and the building of the Kingdom of God.
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Showing the VM alone [b]does [/b]suddenly make a Catholic school an un-faithful one.

If you have benefitted from viewing the VM, it is not apperent in your view of them, because it is not faithful to the Magisterium, the Faith, or the Moral Law.

I have also benefited and benefited people who have viewed pronography, in that addiction has been over come. But this only happens when it first is admitted as evil.

Lastly, what you finish with is moral relitivism, which is a sliding scale into disbelief.

Once Again I am sure that are sincere, but sincerely wrong.

[Jaime]

[quote] I have read the text. It is pronographic. To say that is not is either saddness, a lie with angenda, ignorance, or all three.
[/quote]

I've seen the play with the writer performing. Honestly I can understand that the written version can come across as pornographic. If I had only read the play, I can see myself coming to the same conclusion But when I saw it performed, pornography was the furthest thing from my mind. There is a pathos generated by listening to it read by the writer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not endorsing the play or am I a fan.( I actually found it a bit boring.) I just didn't see it as pornographic. The message I got from watching it is that there have been a large amount of women who have been or are currently embarrassed, mortified, uncomfortable, ashamed, etc. about their bodies and specifically about the vagina.

Are there excerpts that laud sinful behavior. Yes absolutely. On that people have a legitimate gripe. However the intent of the piece is to shed light on the shame and to encourage dialogue. Is it designed to shock people into dialogue? Probably.. But in our "enlightened" age, I know of women who cannot even bring themselves to say the word vagina out loud for fear of embarrassment.

[JudgedByGod]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 7 2006, 06:13 PM']But in our "enlightened" age, I know of women who cannot even bring themselves to say the word vagina out loud for fear of embarrassment.
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Is this really a bad thing? I refrain from saying it (unless in this debate) for the mere reason that it is a private matter. It's something that should only be discussed with a select few people (ie. doctor, husband, close female friends, etc.). For me, it is not a matter of embarrassment, but instead about privacy. We do not need to discuss such things with just anyone. You will never hear me use this word when talking with others, but it has nothing to do with embarrassment, instead it has to do with self respect and modesty.

[Era Might]

[quote name='JudgedByGod' date='Apr 7 2006, 06:36 PM']Is this really a bad thing? I refrain from saying it (unless in this debate) for the mere reason that it is a private matter. It's something that should only be discussed with a select few people (ie. doctor, husband, close female friends, etc.). For me, it is not a matter of embarrassment, but instead about privacy. We do not need to discuss such things with just anyone. You will never hear me use this word when talking with others, but it has nothing to do with embarrassment, instead it has to do with self respect and modesty.
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Thank you. There is a holy bashfulness, not to be confused with prudism. Just because it's natural doesn't mean it can just be put "out there" at whim. Going to the bathroom is natural, but I don't need a blow by blow when you come out.

[shortnun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 7 2006, 04:13 PM'].....

Don't get me wrong, I'm not endorsing the play or am I a fan.( I actually found it a bit boring.)  I just didn't see it as pornographic.  [b]The message I got from watching it is that there have been a large amount of women who have been or are currently embarrassed, mortified, uncomfortable, ashamed, etc. about their bodies and specifically about the vagina.  [/b]
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[Emphasis added] And I believe that addressing this issue of how women feel about their bodies, and their vaginas, is where the Catholic church offers a message of hope--which can be presented in the panel after the play is performed.

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 7 2006, 04:13 PM']Are there excerpts that  laud sinful behavior.  Yes absolutely.  On that people have a legitimate gripe.  [b] However the intent of the piece is to shed light on the shame and to encourage dialogue. [/b] Is it designed to shock people into dialogue?  Probably..  But in our "enlightened" age, I know of women who cannot even bring themselves to say the word vagina out loud for fear of embarrassment.
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[Again, emphasis added.] hot stuff, well said. The Catholic Church says, very clearly, that there is no shame in our bodies--particularly as they are bodies with sex and gender. The intent of the piece is, very much so, to shed light and expose the shame that women have experienced as a result of their sexuality and gender. It is to encourage dialogue. And yes, there is a shock value to it. I certainly won't deny that.

And in our "enlightened" age, [b]there are[/b] women who find themselved unable to say that word [i]vagina[/i] because of embarrassment, shame, fear of ridicule, inferiority, etc. The Catholic Church--who believes in the total and complete dignity of the human person--does not condone embarrassment, shame, fear, inferiority, etc of any person regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, gender, etc.

[shortnun]

[quote name='JudgedByGod' date='Apr 7 2006, 04:36 PM']Is this really a bad thing? I refrain from saying it (unless in this debate) for the mere reason that it is a private matter. It's something that should only be discussed with a select few people (ie. doctor, husband, close female friends, etc.). For me, it is not a matter of embarrassment, but instead about privacy. We do not need to discuss such things with just anyone. You will never hear me use this word when talking with others, but it has nothing to do with embarrassment, instead it has to do with self respect and modesty.
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Thanks be to God that you have lived your life in a part of the world where you know the difference between privacy/modesty and shame/guilt.

Unfortunately, there are women in the world who have not had the same experience with regard to their sexuality as you have had.

[JudgedByGod]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 7 2006, 06:51 PM']Unfortunately, there are women in the world who have not had the same experience with regard to their sexuality as you have had.
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So exposing them to it in this way is supposed to help them? We need to be witnessing to these women more than anyone else. It is so important that we show them how beautiful their bodies are, but at the same time how to treat them correctly. As St. Paul says: [quote name='1 Corinthians 6:19-20']Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body.[/quote]
This is such a beautiful and uplifting statement that everyone should take to heart. We do need to love our bodies, but bringing people to this knowledge through a play that is full of scandal will not do that. Why not put on a women's retreat? Fill these women's hearts with a love for themselves that is so deep that they will only be thanking God for every inch of who they are. It is possible for all of us to truly love our bodies, but we need to do it in a more appropriate way. I urge you to seriously contemplate and pray about how God would want us to go about witnessing to these women. Would He want us to expose them to such scandal and sinful ways? Or would He expect us to embrace these women and fill them with daily compliments, build their self esteem, and show them that their sexuality is not what makes them who they are. That us women, we are absolutely beautiful from the inside out. No play that exposes us to acts from the Devil will ever accomplish such a beautiful and magnificent thing.