Notre Dame will allow "Vagina Monologues"

[Socrates]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 6 2006, 08:21 AM']II support Fr. Jenkin's decision to allow the play to continue by placing it's content firmly within a Catholic context. Furthermore, I applaud his efforts to balance academic freedom and academic responsibility. The real world is not something from which we need to run away and hide. It's not. Neither is it something which we immerse ourselves in totally, and foresake our faith. The sponsorship of this performance does not mean endorsement. Rather, it is an endorsement of Catholic teaching to dialogue within this specific context.
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[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 6 2006, 08:34 AM']Thank you for your comments, and I wholeheartedly second the bolded section. I wasn't intending to be sarcastic in my introductory comment in part because of the larger picture of allowing the play to be produced within the context of a fuller discussion.
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Sometimes I just can't believe what people post on these boards!

It seems by the logic used here that it would be a good thing for Catholic schools to host the showing of hard-core porno films (all in the context of fuller discussion, of course), or for Catholic parishes to invite strippers to perform in the parish hall (not to endorse it, of course). And while we're at it, let's put copies of [i]Hustler [/i]magazine in the rack alongside the diocesine newsletter in the back of the church! (all in the name of "Catholic teaching to dialogue" of course)
I'm sure the liberals here would find such things quite "refreshing"!
I mean, after all, such things are part of the "wider culture" out there in the "real world," and the Catholic Faith has nothing to fear from them! Catholics don't need to "run away and hide" from such stuff!

Such nonsense is hardly "refreshing," but has been going on in secularized "Catholic" universities across the country for 40 years now, all in the name of "academic freedom" and "dialogue."
With what results? With a body of Catholic graduates better able to engage and evangelize the "wider culture"?
The facts speak otherwise. These universities have in reality lost much of their Catholic identity. Students learn all kinds of trendy Lefty ideologies and fads, but are clueless about Catholic doctrine. Studies show a majority of graduates of "mainstream" "Catholic" universities lose the Faith by the time they graduate.

I was fortunate enough to attend a small, solidly orthodox Catholic college that was founded as an antidote for this kind of garbage. No such offensive plays or movies were shown there. Yeah, I know you'll go on about that being "stifling," "sheltered," blah, blah, blah. However, overall, graduates of genuinely Catholic schools such as Christendom, FUS, etc. have a much better record of keeping and defending the Faith, even in hostile environments, than those of the mainstream "Catholic" universities.

College-aged people are still learning and forming their core beliefs. Catholic universities should teach them the Truth, not be wasting their time with carp like "The Vagina Monologues" and Gay Film Festivals.

There is absolutely no reason for Catholic schools to host obscene and offensive garbage in order to prepare students for "the real world." One does not have to witness degrading obscenity to know it is wrong. Besides, most students have plenty of opportunity to watch smut or engage in immorality on their own time, if they so choose, anyway.

Perhaps you could try explaining what advantages Catholic students who see "The Vagina Monologues" and watch homosexual porn have over those who don't? How does listending to women talk crudely about their body parts and lesbian rape, or watching sodomy on screen, advance the intellectual, spiritual, or educational growth of young Catholics?

The fact that Catholics are announcing this on phatmass like it's good news is profoundly disturbing, to say the least.

C'mon, people! Wake up! Start thinking like Catholics instead of like liberals for a change!

[Era Might]

Edited April 7, 2006 by Era Might

[shortnun]

[quote name='JudgedByGod' date='Apr 6 2006, 04:18 PM']How exactly can "The Vagina Monologues" be put into a Catholic context? As far as your statement about running away from the "real world," why does this play have to define the "real world?" The real world shouldn't be about masturbation, discussing vaginas, and fornication. These are works of the devil. No matter how you try to rationalize it, there are no Catholic teachings anywhere in this book. For a "Catholic" school to ok this kind of behavior, they aren't only doing a disservice to their reputation, but they surely aren't leading their students towards God.
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You're very correct. The real world should not be about masturbation, rape, and fornication. The school is not condoning masturbation, rape, or fornication by permitting it to be performed there! Imagine if there are students on campus caught up in some of those activities. How is anyone going to be able to [i]address [/i]those situations and [i]minister [/i]to those people unless the issues are [u]directly addressed[/u]?

Catholic context means that these issues named above are [i]brought into conversation with[/i] Catholic teachings on such issues. Telling people that X, Y, and Z are wrong is a waste of time if you don't tell them [b]why[/b]! It is the duty of the Church to form the conscience of the people so they can best learn how to appropriate faith and reason in their moral decision making. And again, I am filled with hope by Fr. Jenkins' statements, and pray for a fruitful conversation as a result of these events.

_______________________

Socrates,

Even if they are my own statements, it's nice to see a little mix-up in terms of the responses here on the boards. And, by the by, I'm proud to say that I went to a Catholic college, and that we performed the Vagina Monologues (and later our own personal testamonies in place of them) every year.
[quote]How does listending to women talk crudely about their body parts and lesbian rape, or watching sodomy on screen, advance the intellectual, spiritual, or educational growth of young Catholics?[/quote]
1) Women talking frankly about their bodies parts after decades of being told that words such as vagina were shameful. THEY'RE NOT.
2) Sodomy destroys the human soul. Personal testamony can help us heal those persons in our community through empathy. Same thing goes for rape--it happens, and probably to someone you've known. The healing that must come about after that trauma is a long process and is personal and communal. How are we as the Church responding to those needs?

[Theoketos]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 6 2006, 08:19 PM']
Even if they are my own statements, it's nice to see a little mix-up in terms of the responses here on the boards. And, by the by, I'm proud to say that I went to a Catholic college, and that we performed the Vagina Monologues (and later our own personal testamonies in place of them) every year.

1) Women talking frankly about their bodies parts after decades of being told that words such as vagina were shameful. THEY'RE NOT.

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Indeed there is a need for the true liberation of women. Women, in the right context should be talk about their body parts.

However, woman degrading thier body parts, even for the sake or at least the supposed sake of truth, is not acceptable.

The VM's are crude, do not promote healing, and indeed set feminism back. There is nothing wholesome or liberating about them. They are shameless and admit of being so.



EDIT TO FRUSTRATEDLY ADD

The VM address those issuses, but not in a healthy way. THEY CONDONE THEM, THEY CONDONE SIN. If you want to really minister to people YOU CANNOT CONDONE THIER SIN.

Edited April 7, 2006 by Theoketos

[toledo_jesus]

how many people are going to stick around after the play to listen to why everything in it is wrong? Like 5, that's how many. How do you put it in Catholic context if you don't force people to sit down and learn it?

[shortnun]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Apr 6 2006, 09:35 PM']Indeed there is a need for the true liberation of women. Women, in the right context should be talk about their body parts.

However, woman degrading thier body parts, even for the sake or at least the supposed sake of truth, is not acceptable.

The VM's are crude, do not promote healing, and indeed set feminism back. There is nothing wholesome or liberating about them. They are shameless and admit of being so.
EDIT TO FRUSTRATEDLY ADD

The VM address those issuses, but not in a healthy way. THEY CONDONE THEM, THEY CONDONE SIN. If you want to really minister to people YOU CANNOT CONDONE THIER SIN.
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Theo.... where do we draw the line b/w ministering to people [u]created within the image of God[/u] and "loving the sinner, but hating the sin"? That's slightly rhetorical, but what am I (or you, or anyone else) supposed to do when I'm working in a parish one day and some man comes to me and says "I beat my wife." Do I respond, "I'm sorry, but I don't condone that, so I don't really know how to help you"?

You know, I'm probably with you on the idea that the VM can be counterproductive for feminists (and for the "movement" as a whole). But I refuse to think that no healing can come from them, particularly if/when the Catholic church is given an opportunity to respond to the needs of the women (and men) who are so traumatized by the events they recount.

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 6 2006, 09:38 PM']how many people are going to stick around after the play to listen to why everything in it is wrong?  Like 5, that's how many.  How do you put it in Catholic context if you don't force people to sit down and learn it?
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One word: [b]Freedom[/b] The Catholic Church does not condone cramming something down one's throat so that they learn the faith.

[i]If five people stay, then you speak to them and pray that the Holy Spirit's words are the only ones that come out of your mouth.[/i]

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 6 2006, 10:46 PM']One word: [b]Freedom[/b] The Catholic Church does not condone cramming something down one's throat so that they learn the faith.

[i]If five people stay, then you speak to them and pray that the Holy Spirit's words are the only ones that come out of your mouth.[/i]
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So, five people stay and the rest walk away with an affirmed Vagina worldview. Great. Not good enough. Freedom means they can go to another place and watch it. Freedom means that a Catholic school can choose not to show it.

[Theoketos]

[quote]Theo.... where do we draw the line b/w ministering to people created within the image of God and "loving the sinner, but hating the sin"? That's slightly rhetorical, but what am I (or you, or anyone else) supposed to do when I'm working in a parish one day and some man comes to me and says "I beat my wife." Do I respond, "I'm sorry, but I don't condone that, so I don't really know how to help you"?[/quote]

That is really really really easy.

Do nothing that is contrary to the dignity of the human person. The [i]personalistic norm[/i] is what makes John Paul II so great.

The VM is contrary to the dignity of the human person. Repeating them is contrary to the dignity of actress saying them. Hearing them is contrary to the dignity of the audiance.

And of course there can be healing from it, but THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS.

Just so you know, what you are saying is directly contrary to the natural law. And although I believe you to be a sincere, and a sincerely caring person, what you say is wrong and contrary to healing and healing through the Church.

Just because some one is sincere, does not make the right.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 6 2006, 10:19 PM']Catholic context means that these issues named above are [i]brought into conversation with[/i] Catholic teachings on such issues. Telling people that X, Y, and Z are wrong is a waste of time if you don't tell them [b]why[/b]! It is the duty of the Church to form the conscience of the people so they can best learn how to appropriate faith and reason in their moral decision making. And again, I am filled with hope by Fr. Jenkins' statements, and pray for a fruitful conversation as a result of these events.[right][snapback]938317[/snapback][/right][/quote]
you can bring the issues in to conversation w/o promoting a play that is in direct contradiction of Church teaching. its not like we [i][b]need[/b][/i] this silly work of "art" before we can talk about the proper way to understand female sexuality.

[JudgedByGod]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Apr 6 2006, 11:19 PM']You're very correct. The real world should not be about masturbation, rape, and fornication. The school is not condoning masturbation, rape, or fornication by permitting it to be performed there! Imagine if there are students on campus caught up in some of those activities. How is anyone going to be able to [i]address [/i]those situations and [i]minister [/i]to those people unless the issues are [u]directly addressed[/u]?
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You're right, these issues do need to be addressed. I do realize that we don't talk about them as often as we should. However, by bringing them up in such a liberal and feminist manner, you are only helping the actions to continue. In order to fight these things, an approach that states that they are wrong and sinful is the only way to go. You can't expect a play that encourages such behavior to actually help in this battle.

When I read VM's, it spoke specifically about how liberating all of these actions were. That doesn't seem like there are any intentions of ending them. In fact, they are encouraging and provoking women to use and look at their bodies in this horribly sinful way. Women should not be considered an object or merely defined by our feminine organs. They are not who we are. Loving ourselves and having men understand our true beauty will not be found by masturbation or fornicating. We need to address these issues and realize that they will only lead to lust and therefore only emotionally hurt ourselves.

It is plays and teachings like this that have not given women more rights, but instead has taken them away. We have lost alot of respect from men as they no longer know how they are supposed to treat us. We have lost our own self images and have turned them into a lust that can only harm ourselves. But most importantly, we are going against God's will for us to love ourselves and eachother. We cannot expect to truly love eachother if we understand who we are by our bodies rather than examining our souls.

[OP_MOM]

I always seem to come in on the end of these things...sorry.

My opinion on all of this is that we should follow the example of Jesus as He ministered the people. He didn't avoid sinners - He confronted them. He forgave them. He told them not to sin again. But the one thing that He never did was invite them to put on a display of their wrongdoing for others to discuss. Sounds pretty simple to me. :

[crazymaine catholic]

amen to that OP MOM! :

[stbernardLT]

Aw man! I thought this thread was about the Virginia Monologues. Oh well.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 5 2006, 05:20 PM']I can only hope that you're being sarcastic here!

Are you seriously saying that you think "engaging the wider culture" means that Catholic institutions must host such smut??
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[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 06:04 PM']Sometimes I just can't believe what people post on these boards!
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I could not agree more with you. At 1st I too thought sojourner was being sarcastic...or at least I hoped and gave her the benefit of the doubt. But, all in all it doesn't particularly surprise me that some of the liberals here support the Vagina Monologues

Edit: btw, this IS Notre Dame after all, so I am not surprised that they decided to go with it. I would have dropped dead from shock if they had shut it down

Edited April 7, 2006 by notardillacid

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']It seems by the logic used here that it would be a good thing for Catholic schools to host the showing of hard-core porno films  (all in the context of fuller discussion, of course), or for Catholic parishes to invite strippers to perform in the parish hall (not to endorse it, of course).  And while we’re at it, let’s put copies of [i]Hustler [/i]magazine in the rack alongside the diocesine newsletter in the back of the church!  (all in the name of “Catholic teaching to dialogue” of course)

I’m sure the liberals here would find such things quite “refreshing”!

I mean, after all, such things are part of the  “wider culture” out there in the “real world,” and the Catholic Faith has nothing to fear from them!  Catholics don’t need to “run away and hide” from such stuff! 
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I love how you feel free to put words into my mouth. {note: That is sarcasm}

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']Such nonsense is hardly “refreshing,” but has been going on in secularized “Catholic” universities across the country for 40 years now, all in the name of “academic freedom” and “dialogue.”

With what results?  With a body of Catholic graduates better able to engage and evangelize the “wider culture”?

The facts speak otherwise.  These universities have in reality lost much of their Catholic identity.  Students learn all kinds of trendy Lefty ideologies and fads, but are clueless about Catholic doctrine.  Studies show a majority of graduates of “mainstream” “Catholic” universities lose the Faith by the time they graduate.
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Studies show a majority of graduates of small solidly orthodox Catholic “colleges” have their heads buried in the “sand.”

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']I was fortunate enough to attend a small, solidly orthodox Catholic college that was founded as an antidote for this kind of garbage.  No such offensive plays or movies were shown there.  Yeah, I know you’ll go on about that being “stifling,” “sheltered,” blah, blah, blah.  However, overall, graduates of  genuinely Catholic schools such as Christendom, FUS, etc. have a much better record of keeping and defending the Faith,  even in hostile environments, than those of the mainstream “Catholic” universities.
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So, you’ve been able to poll people in heaven, then? You’re saying that the majority of college graduates who made it through the pearly gates went to “genuinely Catholic schools such as Christendom, FUS, etc.”? Because I know a lot of people from conservative backgrounds and liberal backgrounds alike who have struggled with their faith. Some have come back; some haven’t, but I pray they will.

I think there are good things that can come of training kids in a conservative, supportive environment. I also think there are good things that can come by creating an atmosphere where dialogue about difficult subjects is supported and encouraged, and where different voices are respected. But then I’m sure that’s just so much liberal claptrap. Listening to what people say without jumping all over them and putting words in their mouths! How awful!

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']College-aged people are still learning and forming their core beliefs.  Catholic universities should teach them the Truth, not be wasting their time with carp like “The Vagina Monologues” and Gay Film Festivals.
...
Besides, most students have plenty of opportunity to watch smut or engage in immorality on their own time, if they so choose, anyway. 
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So ... you’re saying that the students who would choose to watch these things are a lost cause? That we shouldn’t try to engage them in dialogue about what they think? We should just preach to them the error of their ways, and then wash our hands of them if they don’t listen?

If they’re going to watch them anyway, why not watch them in a setting in which the Truth can be presented as well as carp they’re going to watch anyway? If college is such a tender age at which to form people’s consciences and core beliefs, why not present people who would otherwise not hear it with authentic Catholicism, and authentically Christian take on the play or movie they just watched?

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 6 2006, 07:04 PM']Perhaps you could try explaining what advantages Catholic students who see “The Vagina Monologues” and watch homosexual porn have over those who don’t?  How does listending to women talk crudely about their body parts and lesbian rape, or watching sodomy on screen, advance the intellectual, spiritual, or educational growth of young Catholics?
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For starters, they’ve earned the right to actually critique the play or film they’ve just watched, which puts them in a position to actually be able to build relationship and dialogue with people they might not agree with. I know that’s a foreign concept to you, but lots of people do find it appealing to hear others’ viewpoints and try to understand where they’re coming from. They find it can be a useful tool in “evangelization” and “ministering to others.”