How long do you think you'll spend in purgatory

[LouisvilleFan]

Ironically, the only lonely place is Hell.

Of course, some people probably love being alone... maybe if they go, their Hell is a big party.

I can't tell if this thread is a joke or not. Why are so many Catholics who are otherwise knowledgeable about their faith stuck on this idea that there is time in purgatory? It's never been taught that way by anyone... ever.

Edited July 21, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Winchester]

I've already put money down on a timeshare.

[Galloglasses]

I won't even Make it to purgetory.

Even then, I refuse to spectulate, I'll probably lose track of pretty much every thought in my head long before the time runs out. But a million or so years is nothing to an immortal soul, isn't it? Actually, no, thats quite a staggeringly long time even if you're immortal =/

[LouisvilleFan]

I have no idea what anybody here is talking about. Are you guys Catholics? Don't you all know that through Christ we have [b]hope[/b] in eternal salvation? You all talk like you're expecting to be in Hell, or will actually be surprised if you "make it" to Heaven. I know we should be humble, but this sounds like false humilty, focusing on your own sins so much that you're cheapening or doubting God's ability to redeem us.

As for me, I expect to experience purgatory, which I personally believe 99.99% of all who die in grace (canonized saints included ) experience to at least a small degree. As long as you still need Confession, you still have attachment to sin, which means your soul will need to be purged of that attachment in order to be in Heaven. Whether it's the equivalent of digging a little dirt from your fingernails or an extensive showering, washing, and shaving... only God knows. But I think (and I might be wrong) that it's very rare -- if not impossible -- for anyone to be such a perfect follower of Christ that their soul has no need of purging after death.

Besides, purgatory is a completely and wholly grace-filled and Christ-centered experience. It has absolutely nothing to do with us, which is why it will hurt.

Now, cue that "Love Hurts" track...

Edited July 21, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Mercy me]

I don't really care. If I make it to purgatory then everything just gets better than I can imagine. I will be the happiest person in purgatory.

[CatherineM]

I figure all my friends and family will be in purgatory, so I'm not afraid to hang out for awhile.

Edited July 21, 2008 by CatherineM

[friendofJPII]

God is so pure and so holy that we wouldn't [i]want[/i] to go to heaven without being purified first. We would be very uncomfortable if God's light directly encountered the darkness that remains in our souls. Since we were discussing wedding dresses in a prior thread, I like to use this analogy. Heaven is like an elegantly decorated ballroom where everyone is adorned with their most beautiful attire....the most elegant dresses and tuxedos. And then you or I show up dressed in dirty jeans and an old T-shirt. Would we feel comfortable there? No. We would want to go and get dressed up too, even if the process of "getting ready" (going to purgatory) would be a little uncomfortable.

Edited July 21, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

I, too, have to ask why is there all this "woe is me" mentality here? Yes, we are all sinners, none of us deserve to go to heaven, but that is what God wants. He does not want us to be separated from Him forever in Hell. I mean no offense when I say this, but when I first read all of these things it seemed to me that everyone is judging themselves, and I admit that I, too, judge myself a lot of the time and am very hard on myself, but isn't God the only Judge? He knows us better than we know ourselves, so why do we ask whether or not we will get to Heaven? It is not for us to decide: all we can do is live our lives as best we can with the help of God. The rest is up to God. It just seemed to me as though this thread was very gloomy and not balancing God's Mercy with His Justice. Yes, Purgatory is a means of God's Justice, but it is not all of Who God is. I think we need to be careful to balance the two ends of this pole of tension. Just my two cents.

[jmjtina]

Honestly, false humility is in the eyes of the beholder and frankly, I am praying to become detached from worldly praise or false accusation. So what difference does it make what anyone thinks of my statement? I claim neither humility nor any falsehood. It's just a fact.

I would recommend reading more on the saints and scripture together to get a better understanding.

Don't get me wrong. I pray for mercy and have hope to one day reach heaven. But whether I reach it or not, (through purgatory or not) [b][u]does not diminish God's mercy and Love.[/u][/b] It's my sins, the offense I gave, which I stumble with daily which beaver dam me to Hell. The realization of this has caused me to make some serious changes in my life in the hopes of getting to heaven, through purgatory or directly to. Your statement itself is an extreme that dances with protestant thought. It seems your almost positive your going to purgatory. Well, I wish I was positive I was dying in grace, but I don't know the time or the hour, so I pray and hope for God's mercy.

Remember, I said I deserve Hell, not that I was sure I was going there. Again, my hope is in God's Mercy and grace; which is enough.

And yes, days and time exist. There are indulgences for days and years in Purgatory approved by the Church herself. Unless you can find a doc that says that those are invalid now, then time does exist.

As for canonized saints not being in heaven, to say they are in purgatory is not correct either. While it is my personal opinion that the canonized saints are in heaven (thus allowing miracles) I don't think the Church says yes or no, but actually allows the saint to be celebrated. This is a great question for another thread or for the q&a board.

[quote][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm"]"In honour of . . . we decree and define that Blessed N. is a Saint, and we inscribe his name in the catalogue of saints, and order that his memory by devoutly and piously celebrated yearly on the . . . day of . . . his feast."[/url]

(Ad honorem . . . beatum N. Sanctum esse decernimus et definimus ac sanctorum catalogo adscribimus statuentes ab ecclesiâ universali illius memoriam quolibet anno, die ejus natali . . . piâ devotione recoli debere.)[/quote]

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1604929' date='Jul 21 2008, 10:02 PM']And yes, days and time exist. There are indulgences for days and years in Purgatory approved by the Church herself. Unless you can find a doc that says that those are invalid now, then time does exist.[/quote]

I thought that myself not long ago at all, but a couple of people on Phatmass said that was a misunderstanding... it's actually time off of earthly/temporal penances, not Purgatory. Earthly penances used to be a lot stricter back then. The Church also no longer states years or days (just partial or plenary), due to the common misunderstanding of the teaching. That's what people have told me here, anyway.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1604936' date='Jul 21 2008, 09:08 PM']I thought that myself not long ago at all, but a couple of people on Phatmass said that was a misunderstanding... it's actually time off of earthly/temporal penances, not Purgatory. Earthly penances used to be a lot stricter back then. The Church also no longer states years or days (just partial or plenary), due to the common misunderstanding of the teaching. That's what people have told me here, anyway.[/quote]

yeah, I was gonna ask that on the Q&A board to make sure.

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

jmjtina, I was not referencing you or anyone else directly: just making an observation. I am sorry if I came across as judgemental myself: I did not mean to. And I by no means am positive of where I will go when I die. To be completely honest, I don't think about it too much: right now I'm just trying to figure out what it is that God wants me to do with my life here on earth. I have great hope that I will get to heaven someday, and have faith that God grants each person the grace to get there with His help (whether it be through purgatory or straight to heaven) coupled with the good works that each person does. Again, I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else.

[jmjtina]

NazFarmer, none taken. My sister is always telling me to use more smilies because people can't hear my tone of voice.

I hate it when she's right.

Edited July 22, 2008 by jmjtina

[jmjtina]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1604936' date='Jul 21 2008, 09:08 PM']I thought that myself not long ago at all, but a couple of people on Phatmass said that was a misunderstanding... it's actually time off of earthly/temporal penances, not Purgatory. Earthly penances used to be a lot stricter back then. The Church also no longer states years or days (just partial or plenary), due to the common misunderstanding of the teaching. That's what people have told me here, anyway.[/quote]

Your right.

I stand [url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=23482"]corrected.[/url] Thanks!

[quote]Time, at least as we know it in this life, may not exist in the next life. So it wouldn't be possible to calculate purgatory as if it were a prison sentence from which we could be sprung early for "good behavior." All that we know about purgatory is that it is a state of cleansing from the temporal consequences due forgiven sins, that the cleansing will in some manner be painful, and that those of us here on earth can help release the souls in purgatory by our prayers for them.

God, in his infinite justice and mercy, will certainly take into account all circumstances that mitigate personal culpability for sin and all that we do in this life to atone for past sins. Beyond that, it is probably best not to worry about the specifics of how much "time" people spend being cleansed in the next life.

Recommended reading:

[url="http://www.envoymagazine.com/planetenvoy/special-purgatoryemergencyroom1.htm"]Purgatory: God's Emergency Room for Sinners[/url] by Patrick Madrid[/quote]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm"]and on indulgences (days/years)[/url]

[quote]An indulgence is the extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment due, in God's justice, to sin that has been forgiven, which remission is granted by the Church in the exercise of the power of the keys, through the application of the superabundant merits of Christ and of the saints, and for some just and reasonable motive.[/quote]

Edited July 22, 2008 by jmjtina

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1604929' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']Honestly, false humility is in the eyes of the beholder and frankly, I am praying to become detached from worldly praise or false accusation. So what difference does it make what anyone thinks of my statement? I claim neither humility nor any falsehood. It's just a fact.[/quote]

I'm not the judge of humility, but I do know that I'm a Catholic because I believe the Church is the true path to Heaven. Why would I bother going to Mass if I'm not looking forward with hope to being in Heaven? Excessive focus on one's own sins is a form of pride, in which we tread dangerously close to committing sin against the Holy Spirit by believing that our sins are too great for God's grace. Just how big and mighty do we think we are if God cannot forgive us?

On the other side of that coin is the other extreme, where some Christians believe all should be forgiven. They overlook the command to repentance and perfection in following Christ. As in most everything, the key is balance between these unhealthy extremes, which is exactly where the Church leads us.

Some of this I'm talking about comes from "The Spiritual Combat" by Fr. Lorenzo Scupoli, which the Into the Deep podcast has been discussing for about 50 episodes... I'm hardly one-tenth through it. A lot to chew on even without reading the book.

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1604929' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']Your statement itself is an extreme that dances with protestant thought. It seems your almost positive your going to purgatory. Well, I wish I was positive I was dying in grace, but I don't know the time or the hour, so I pray and hope for God's mercy.[/quote]

I never speculated on my own estimation about my own judgment. That's God's call. As Catholics, we hope for Heaven knowing that Christ's promises are true and unyielding. As far as I know, I'm giving the Catholic doctrine of purgatory in my own words, not dancing with Protestant thought. But if I am, I'd like to know so I'm not in error.

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1604929' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']Remember, I said I deserve Hell, not that I was sure I was going there. Again, my hope is in God's Mercy and grace; which is enough.[/quote]

Then I wasn't replying to you specifically in saying that. Others, however, have said in as many words that they're going to Hell. That seems like an odd stance to take.

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1604929' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']As for canonized saints not being in heaven, to say they are in purgatory is not correct either. While it is my personal opinion that the canonized saints are in heaven (thus allowing miracles) I don't think the Church says yes or no, but actually allows the saint to be celebrated. This is a great question for another thread or for the q&a board.[/quote]

Canonizations are infallible declarations of the Church, so there's no question about where they are. What we do not know is whether they endured any purging between death and Heaven. The Church never makes a statement on that, so we pray for the souls of the faithful departed and seek the intercession of those we have reason to believe are in Heaven in order to obtain the miracles needed for their canonization.

Edited July 22, 2008 by LouisvilleFan