Desert Walker Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='jezic' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:47 AM']while this is true, again i don't think that is one of the main issues. I would like to see this for the sake that rogue bishops would then not be able to silence traditionalists in their diocese. (While we might not like to admit it, there are some bishops whose decisions may not have been the best for their people.) It would also allow priests that want to do a traditional Mass a little bit more freedom, but in reality i don't think that it changes a whole lot. My point was more about the SSPX argument. It is moot because i don't think that is the point of a universal indult. People could debate over who should move first until the cows come home and get nowhere. Is it even productive to do so? Reconciliation is great, but then lets work on that and not crow to each other from yards away about who should cross the line first. [right][snapback]936447[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Excellent points. Without doubt Marcel was wrong on doctrine. Without doubt he was also right in his defensive posture regarding tradition. Ratzinger admits as much I think in his address in Chile. And like I said the SSPX is an organizational representative of Paul's exhortation to "hold fast to your traditions." Whether they think the "Conciliar Church," as they call us, is faithful to that tradition is not as significant as the message their existence should send us about ourselves. ----------------------------------------------- [quote]Cam42: Rome has nothing to make right.[/quote] Rome has plenty to make right. The question is whether the pope actually has any power to do anything at this point in history. I don't think he has much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Walker Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' date='Apr 5 2006, 08:45 AM']Thank you. I didn't mean to suggest you were misrepresenting him. Just that a lot of his thought can be "lost in translation", so to speak. He's very elaborative. oops: same link. [right][snapback]936445[/snapback][/right] [/quote] : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Desert Walker' date='Apr 5 2006, 10:58 AM']Rome has plenty to make right. The question is whether the pope actually has any power to do anything at this point in history. I don't think he has much. [right][snapback]936465[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Not on this issue. And the Pope has plenty of authority, he just has to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Walker Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 He has plenty of authority, but what if the hostile political envrionment constrains him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Desert Walker' date='Apr 5 2006, 11:41 AM']He has plenty of authority, but what if the hostile political envrionment constrains him? [right][snapback]936499[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You mean like Blessed Pius IX or Paul VI? They both served in hostile enviorments and look at what they accomplished.... Papal Infallibility (defined through Vatican Council I) and Humanae Vitae, respectively. I don't worry about political constraint....the Pope is bigger than any one government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peccator Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Personally I don't mind who makes the first step...I simply want the schism ended! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Tarcisius' date='Apr 4 2006, 07:29 PM']Rome should take the first step towards making things right because Rome took the first step away from right. [right][snapback]935842[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What is that supposed to mean? Axplain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Peccator' date='Apr 5 2006, 09:47 AM']Personally I don't mind who makes the first step...I simply want the schism ended! [right][snapback]936504[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Ditto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Walker Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 5 2006, 09:46 AM']You mean like Blessed Pius IX or Paul VI? They both served in hostile enviorments and look at what they accomplished.... Papal Infallibility (defined through Vatican Council I) and Humanae Vitae, respectively. I don't worry about political constraint....the Pope is bigger than any one government. [right][snapback]936502[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm talking about the Curia. What about the power to depose or remove persons from positions of certain authority? What about the power to establish detailed, SPECIFIC universal norms of seminarian formation and education so that an end can come to the reign of the subjective infallibility of all Christians? I just spent the last two years of my life learning how to reject my Catholic faith without feeling guilty! And I was in the Redemptorist formation program! That's the kind of thing the pope has the authority to end! And he isn't! Why the heck not?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowak.chris Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Peccator' date='Apr 5 2006, 11:47 AM']Personally I don't mind who makes the first step...I simply want the schism ended! [right][snapback]936504[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree, with the qualification that Rome, if indeed it is Rome who acts first, is not admiting grave error in teaching. Same with the E.Orthodox schism. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Desert Walker' date='Apr 5 2006, 12:37 PM']I'm talking about the Curia. What about the power to depose or remove persons from positions of certain authority? What about the power to establish detailed, SPECIFIC universal norms of seminarian formation and education so that an end can come to the reign of the subjective infallibility of all Christians? I just spent the last two years of my life learning how to reject my Catholic faith without feeling guilty! And I was in the Redemptorist formation program! That's the kind of thing the pope has the authority to end! And he isn't! Why the heck not?! [right][snapback]936581[/snapback][/right] [/quote] He has the right to do what he wishes..... How do you know that he is not? He has only been Pope a year..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 (edited) Desert, Fear not. The Holy Father isn't worried about what anyone thinks. He will stand up for what is right. Nothing is constraining him. From his book "Salt of the Earth": [quote]It is true that the Church may never simply align itself with the "Zeitgeist". The Church must address the vices and perils of the time; she must appeal to the consciences of the powerful and of the intellectuals, not to mention of those who want to live narrow-minded, comfortable lives while ignoring the needs of the time, and so forth. As a bishop I felt obliged to face this task. Moreover, the deficits were too obvious: exhaustion of the faith, decline in vocations, lowering of moral standards even among men of the Church, an increasing tendency towards violence, and much else. [b]The words of the Bible and of the Church Fathers rang in my ears, those sharp condemnations of shepherds who are like mute dogs; in order to avoid conflicts, they let the poison spread. Peace is not the first civic duty, and a bishop whose only concern is not to have any problems and to gloss over as many conflicts as possible is an image I find repulsive[/b].[/quote] As for why he hasn't done this or that, he is only one man. He has to rely a lot on his fellow Bishops to do their job. They have been given a diocese for a reason. Edited April 5, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 ya, era might is right. the bishops have a pretty big job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Walker Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 5 2006, 10:45 AM']He has the right to do what he wishes..... How do you know that he is not? He has only been Pope a year..... [right][snapback]936593[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I know that he has not because churchmen like my parish priest think that events like the annual Eucharistic Congress in my diocese is a right-wing nut house event, detrimental to world peace and social justice, and that devotion to the Divine Mercy must remain private or "ecumenism" will be disrupted. So we're not allowed to conduct a public, week-long devotional activity to Divine Mercy in MY OWN PARISH!!! I thought we were supposed to be Roman Catholic! Maybe the pope WILL do something definitive at some point in the future, Cam, but while he's waiting around, people like me are on the verge of losing their faith. Never in my life did I think I would seriously consider not going to Mass, not going to confession, not praying. Never in my life have I felt like everything is so utterly pointless I should give up completely. "Keep the faith!" you might say. My answer? "Keep WHAT faith?" I can't remember what the truth is anymore... The quote from "Salt of the Earth" is encouraging, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 [quote name='Desert Walker' date='Apr 5 2006, 01:08 PM']I know that he has not because churchmen like my parish priest think that events like the annual Eucharistic Congress in my diocese is a right-wing nut house event, detrimental to world peace and social justice, and that devotion to the Divine Mercy must remain private or "ecumenism" will be disrupted. So we're not allowed to conduct a public, week-long devotional activity to Divine Mercy in MY OWN PARISH!!! I thought we were supposed to be Roman Catholic! Maybe the pope WILL do something definitive at some point in the future, Cam, but while he's waiting around, people like me are on the verge of losing their faith. Never in my life did I think I would seriously consider not going to Mass, not going to confession, not praying. Never in my life have I felt like everything is so utterly pointless I should give up completely. "Keep the faith!" you might say. My answer? "Keep WHAT faith?" I can't remember what the truth is anymore... The quote from "Salt of the Earth" is encouraging, though. [right][snapback]936620[/snapback][/right] [/quote] How many parishes are there in the world again? It would seem that it would be more up to the Ordinary to take care of what is going on....how about aiming that pent up anger at him and not the Pope. Paruse the Code of Canon Law, Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Redemptoris Sacramentum......it explains the role of the Ordinary in the life of his See. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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