The Reformation

[cmotherofpirl]

I know that, and I would suppose the people that WROTE your CCC know that too, so just SAY THAT. Grin.

Just having some fun with the doctrine here, it is those "MAN MADE TEACHINGS" that get you guys in trouble all the time. Wonder if the next rewrite of your belief system will clear that little glitch up?

:rolling:

Yes we are blessed with a coherent logical system, unlike the other 33,000 flavors of christians.

[Bruce S]

Bruce, I was a protestant for 24 years, before joining the Catholic Church, i know your side of it. And I see nothing in a prot Church that resembles the Church that can be found as early at 100AD.

Can you show me something other than Catholic that was around at that time, and were Christian? You can only trace your church back to the 1500's if that, its man made.

Are so unaware of Church history that you don't know that the GREEK ORTHODOX were running things then? Wasn't a dominant Bishop in Rome, who had any of the other Bishops that agreed with HIM that HE was "da man" or "Don Corleone of Christianity"

So, YES, frankly, I CAN show you a church that PREDATES YOUR denomination, and it took me all of 30 seconds to find it. OH, the Armenians have pretty good claim here, as does the Coptic church too.

AND, you were just a denomination, that is all, YOU split off from the Greeks, not the other way around, frankly, ROME was the FIRST PROTESTANT denomination...protesting against all the other GREEK led churches.

PROVE YOU PREDATE THE CHURCH IN ASIA MINOR, which became the Greek Orthodox Church.

[foundsheep]

Calm it down folks.

Bruce juast a question, Did paul go to rome or greece first?

[beng]

I know that, and I would suppose the people that WROTE your CCC know that too, so just SAY THAT. Grin.

Just having some fun with the doctrine here, it is those "MAN MADE TEACHINGS" that get you guys in trouble all the time. Wonder if the next rewrite of your belief system will clear that little glitch up?

:rolling:

Sola Scriptura is man made

Sola Fide is man made

Invisible Church is man made

Altar call is man made

Rapture is man made

Denominations is man made!!

(and is condemned Mat 12:25, Rome 13:13 [find "dissension"], 1 Cor 1:10-13, 1 cor 3:3-4, 1 Cor 11:18-19. 1Timothy 6:3-5 etc etc etc)

All Catholic doctrine can be traced back to early church and all have biblical evidence (After all The Bible came to exist thanks to the Catholic Church hard work and prayers)

[Bruce S]

Yes we are blessed with a coherent logical system, unlike the other 33,000 flavors of christians.

Coherant? Ha...funny. You have REAMS AND ROOMS FULL of "doctrine" give me ONE DEFINITIVE document that I can go and buy, I have quoted VERBATIM now from the CCC, and you told me what CLEARLY was there, isn't. So, I imagine the remainder of this slicing and dicing will be just as much fun for me. Juan Diego and the magic eye mysteries [link to IMAGE shown, and it isn't there] Juan Diego disproved by his OWN proponents, and the MYTH story published as PROOF? Come on now, I honestly expected better opposition here.

You know that is a lie, so do I. Want to retract it NOW, or do I have to do "da dump" where the SOURCE of YOUR "facts" shows that there are almost as many FLAVORS of Catholicsm as Protestantism?

Remember, the ENTIRE article written by YOUR OWN SOURCE will prove you to be a blithering uninformed poster with that endless lie that Catholics like to banter about.

So, retract, or do I dump? Grin. Please don't retract!!

[Bruce S]

Bruce juast a question, Did paul go to rome or greece first?

Did you pass Ancient History 101?

The first missionary trip was ENTIRELY within Greece. Or didn't you know that those territories were GREEK? The entire area from what is now Yugoslavia, to Lebanon was ENTIRELY Greek cities and territories.

[beng]

Are so unaware of Church history that you don't know that the GREEK ORTHODOX were running things then? Wasn't a dominant Bishop in Rome, who had any of the other Bishops that agreed with HIM that HE was "da man" or "Don Corleone of Christianity"

Learn your history.

Petrine Primacy is always was and is. See my posts on Early Church father's quotes concerning Petrine Primacy. These church fathers live WAY BEFORE THE EASTERN SCHISM, yet they uphold Petrine Primacy

You don't know what you're talking.

So, YES, frankly, I CAN show you a church that PREDATES YOUR denomination, and it took me all of 30 seconds to find it. OH, the Armenians have pretty good claim here, as does the Coptic church too.

The start of Eastern Churches split was as early as 815. This is the year where they disobey the authority. The authority that had been upheld by early church father from BOTH East and West.

Even Photius, beofre his disobedience, sent rescipt to Rome to explain his cause (Rome says no to him since his ordaination is invalid and Alexandria See already had valid Patriarch, which was sacked by Photius by the way)

So,...What are you talking about?

AND, you were just a denomination, that is all, YOU split off from the Greeks, not the other way around, frankly, ROME was the FIRST PROTESTANT denomination...protesting against all the other GREEK led churches.

PROVE YOU PREDATE THE CHURCH IN ASIA MINOR, which became the Greek Orthodox Church.

Where did you learn your history?

Protesting against the greek? It was the greek that challenge previous council decision that they originally uphold.

Baseless claims are easy to refute

Edited December 24, 2003 by beng

[foundsheep]

Did you pass Ancient History 101?

The first missionary trip was ENTIRELY within Greece. Or didn't you know that those territories were GREEK? The entire area from what is now Yugoslavia, to Lebanon was ENTIRELY Greek cities and territories.

Bruce,

May love and charity soften your heart.

I was asking a question because I wanted to know.

Thank you for the answer you did give.

Peace be with you in the name of Christ.

Foundsheep

[Bruce S]

Sola Scriptura is man made

Sola Fide is man made

Invisible Church is man made

Altar call is man made

Rapture is man made

SOLA SCRIPTURE ... means ONLY SCRIPTURE/THE BIBLE, so, you are now saying the BIBLE is man made?

Papal Bulls are man made

Vatican Councils are man made

The Catechism is man made

Rapture is something I don't believe in, nor do many Protestants either, so we agree on that one.

[beng]

SOLA SCRIPTURE ... means ONLY SCRIPTURE/THE BIBLE, so, you are now saying the BIBLE is man made?

The Bible NEVER teaches Sola Scriptura!!

Instead the Bible teach about obeying to tradition

From Dave Armstrong website (www.biblicalcatholic.com)

A) Matthew 2:23: the reference to ". . . He shall be called a Nazarene " cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was passed down "by the prophets." Thus, a prophecy, which is considered to be "God's Word" was passed down orally, rather than through Scripture.

B) Matthew 23:2-3: Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority, based on Moses' seat, which phrase (or idea) cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishna, where a sort of "teaching succession" from Moses on down is taught.

And now two examples from the Apostle Paul:

C) In 1 Corinthians 10:4, St. Paul refers to a rock which "followed" the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement, in the related passages about Moses striking the rock to produce water (Exodus 17:1-7; Numbers 20:2-13). But rabbinic tradition does.

D) 2 Timothy 3:8: "As Jannes and Jambres oppsed Moses . . . " These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Exodus 7:8 ff.), or anywhere else in the Old Testament

There is NO Sola Scriptura in the Bile. IT IS MAN MADE (first propose by early church heresiarch such as Donatist, which was condemned. But then Luther resurrected the doctrine)

Papal Bulls are man made

Papal Bull is like instruction about specific things to churches. Every Apostles and Paul did it. Your church, whatever that is must do this too.

Vatican Councils are man made

Councils have been around since the first council which is Jerusalem Council (Act).

If you don't believe the council then please hand over your Bible because it's the result of Hippo Council and Chartage Council (twice)

The Catechism is man made

Why not? So what if it's man made. Your church never set any guidence outside the Bible? Can I pee inside your church? Can I rent your church for Metallica concert?

Rapture is something I don't believe in, nor do many Protestants either, so we agree on that one.

So, by this are you saying even other Protestant are at fault?

So which is the right one?

Surely Christ didn't come to confuse God's people?

Edited December 24, 2003 by beng

[dUSt]

I know that, and I would suppose the people that WROTE your CCC know that too, so just SAY THAT. Grin.

Okay, if you knew that, then your tactics are not to engage in legitimate theological dialogue.

Just having some fun with the doctrine here, it is those "MAN MADE TEACHINGS" that get you guys in trouble all the time. Wonder if the next rewrite of your belief system will clear that little glitch up?

Interesting. Do you care to address my other points?

God bless.

[dUSt]

May God grant us patience and humility.

...frankly, ROME was the FIRST PROTESTANT denomination...protesting against all the other GREEK led churches.

I'm having a hard time following your logic here Bruce. Are you not a Protestant? Now you're saying that the Catholic Church (you said "Rome" but we all know that Rome is a city--not a religion) was the first Protestant denomination? Would that make you part of the second? If so, why would the second Protestant denomination be more grounded in early Christianity than the first?

You confuse me.

God bless.

[dUSt]

Coherant? Ha...funny. You have REAMS AND ROOMS FULL of "doctrine" give me ONE DEFINITIVE document that I can go and buy,

Well, the Bible would be a good place to start.

I have quoted VERBATIM now from the CCC, and you told me what CLEARLY was there, isn't.

You admitted that you knew it wasn't to be taken literally and already confessed to having "fun with doctrine". Hardly noble tactics--and not condusive to open dialogue for the sake of growing in Christ together--unless, of course, this is not your intent.

Come on now, I honestly expected better opposition here.

Opposition? Opposition to what?

God bless.

[dUSt]

SOLA SCRIPTURE ... means ONLY SCRIPTURE/THE BIBLE, so, you are now saying the BIBLE is man made?

You know that this is not what we're saying so why do you make such statements? An attempt to invoke anger?

Bruce, let us pray that we may grow in Christ's love and that He may grant us the ability to follow His example.

God bless.

[Bruce S]

Instead the Bible teach about obeying to tradition

The Bible teaches obeying GOD, NOT tradition, in fact, there are MANY quotations from Jeus himself about the traditions of men, and how they have kept man from God.

Matthew 15

Clean and Unclean

1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[1] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[2] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[3] ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

    8" 'These people honor me with their lips,

      but their hearts are far from me.

    9They worship me in vain;       their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[4] "

Jesus taught that honoring TRADITION, and ignoring God is wrong.

So, don't give me that stuff about Tradition being the way of God, Tradition when IN CONTRAST to the plain clear teachings of Jesus is Phariseeism, and wrong.