The Reformation

[dUSt]

May the peace and love of Christ be with you Bruce.

No. Eucharist is a REMEMBERANCE, nothing more, nothing less. BREAD, simple bread ... sorry.

This is obviously a topic that could warrant multiple threads on it's own, but what it always come's down to is your (or your pastor's) interpretation of the Bible against the Church's.

Personally, I place more trust in a Christian institution that has survived 2000 years of persecution than you or your pastor. No offense.

I have TRUE absolution for sins by going to God or Jesus, don't need a [most likely homosexual] man telling me HE has the power to grant, or NOT grant absolution. Sorry again.

Normally, I would delete unneccesary attacks like this, but in this case, I think I'll leave it. Your lack of charity only helps me re-affirm my resolve to help you become more Christ-like. I'll be praying for your improvement in this area.

Union? I have a great church, filled with Godly, believing Christians, and we don't need to pay homage to another fallible man in Rome, AND we can FIRE our pastor OURSELVES if he becomes a criminal, we don't have to wait till they reassign someone WE DON"T WANT to be our new pastor. Our way is better, sorry.

Your way is better. Our way is better. Their way is better. We can go back and forth all day. Do you mind telling us what Church you belong to? You know what Church we belong to--I think it might help our dialogue if we had similar information about you.

Do I miss the Catholic Church? Heck NO!! I am liberated from the baggage of idolatry [i'm one of those that really does believe the Catholic Church *in Practice* [i know the answers to that, but I OBSERVE what is done, not what is supposed to be done] is off in a serious decline in leadership, worship practice, and direction. FREE and loving it.

If you were an idolater when you were a Catholic, then I contend that you were not a Catholic at all. No wonder you left. You left what you thought was the Church, and seeked Christ in a way that was more convenient. Am I correct in assuming this?

I understand that you feel otherwise, and I can respect that, but understand that we, the Protestants, find so much of Catholicsm just plain old goofy, as is DONE, not in how it is set up, but out there in the streets.

Not in how it is setup? So are you saying that you don't have a problem with the Church itself, but the leadership within the Church? Hardly seems like a reason for you to leave it. I see a lot of bad leadership in Christianity as a whole--doesn't means I'm going to stop being a Christian. I will remain a Christian, and do my best to help the rest of my Christian family to become better Christians.

God bless.

[Anna]

Bruce S: From what Authority did we receive the Bible?

Authority is not "earned," it is bestowed. Christ bestowed authority upon Peter and the apostles.

Concerning the Eucharist, Christ said, "He who eats My flesh and drinks My Blood, abides in Me, and I in him." "Verily, verily, unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in you."

Pax Christi. <><

Edited December 24, 2003 by Anna

[Paladin D]

Hey Bruce,

Many of us Catholics on Phatmass, are actually former-Protestants (me being one of them). I recently converted to the ways of the Catholic Church (aka, Christ's Church). I've been in your community before, and how the general Protestant attuide is like.

Protestantism has no solid leadership... you can say "We have Jesus Christ and the Bible!". Of course, Jesus Christ is our leader ultimately. But isn't that what the countless amount of Protestant denominations all claim?

[beng]

No. Eucharist is a REMEMBERANCE, nothing more, nothing less. BREAD, simple bread ... sorry.

6:53

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

You have to eat Christ's flesh anddrink his blood. If not Christ would not live in you.

Protestant often disregard this direct meaning.

So, we should eat and drink Christ.... how?

22:19

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: do this in remembrance of me.

Christ said that the bread IS his body.

And you think Sola Scripturist adhere to the Bible

http://biblia.com/jesusart/eucharistic.htm

Links to various Eucharist miracles.

It seems that God is re-affirming the Catholic believe of the True Presence. More than once and in many grandious ways.

PS

All verses are from KJV.

Edited December 24, 2003 by beng

[Circle_Master]

Christ said that the bread IS his body.

Scripture also says Christ is the Door. I don't see you bowing down to doors and worshipping them because they are Christ. Christ is also the rock. You don't worship rocks either.

I took a little jab there, but biblical author's as well as secular use metaphor's.

Bruce, I scanned through some of the board, good job on most of your research. Don't get too frustrated though, everyone is hardheaded. Many protestants and many catholics. It's the job of all of us to 'seek first the kingdom of heaven' and the truth that lies with that. Not accept blindly the doctrines of man.

I see many responses on here saying 'well we trust the church'. I still always wonder why you think your church has the correct teachings. The Eastern Orthodox Church had all the same beginnings as you, and without the filoque controversy would be the same thing. Yet somehow their tradition is much different, not sure how you determine yours to be inspired and theirs to not be. The Word of God is promised to stand forever but tradition is not. You can make a strong argument the Apostolic Kerygma was extremely influential in the early church, but you can't make a strong argument that it is the same teaching you use today.

[MC Just]

God says: "The gates of hell shall not prevail" and Lo I am with you always" and "This is the new and everlasting covenant"

Man Says: "God has failed let's correct him and make our own Church.

Why are you so quick to condemn the Heirarchy? Jesus founded it. (Matt 16:16-18)

Your interpretation that everyone has the "Keys to the kingdom of heaven" is grossly wrong. Not everyone who picks up a bible is a Peter and Paul. A bible which by the way came from the Catholic Church, and contains all the books of the Old Testament that Jesus and the Apostles used. Don't believe this?? Let me show you in another post..

God Bless

[Circle_Master]

Matt 16:16-18 first of all I am sure has been debated here, but I will not go there.

I can agree however that the keys were given to Peter. You can also see God using Him three times with those keys when he gives the message on Pentecost bringing in Jews, when he gives the message bringing in Gentiles, and when he gives the message bringing in Samarians.

I don't believe that the physical church was ever given the mission to 'rule' the world. I believe that idea has sprung more out of the amillenialism and postmillenialism within the Catholic Church. Wow, It's so hard to choose what to say without opening up a plethora of debates. I do see however during a millenial reign the church ruling the world with the OT saints.

I'm not sure if your last comment of 'condemning the hierarchy' was aimed at me or not. I do however disagree with the Catholic Church for a plethora and a half of reasons and I find truth within Scripture and studying tradition to see which can give the correct interpretation if one currently exists. I don't see anywhere a promise that someone with Apostolic authority (i.e. the pope) will exist, except without the miracles either.

[beng]

Scripture also says Christ is the Door.  I don't see you bowing down to doors and worshipping them because they are Christ.

Please. Look at the context.

John 10

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Initially Chirst was talking about a parable about sheep flock. Then he identify himself with the parable.

We don't worship doors

Christ is also the rock.  You don't worship rocks either.

When did Christ said that he's the rock? He said about rock to Peter. ("Peter you are the rock}

I took a little jab there, but biblical author's as well as secular use metaphor's.  

The passage concerning the door show that the used of "door" is methaporical. The context when Christ speaks of bread has no parable in the beginning. It should be viewed literally, just as His crucifixion. Or should we believe Islam and say that It was actually Judas who was crcified?

Not accept blindly the doctrines of man.

Sola Scriptura is the doctrine of men

Altar Call is the doctrine of men

Rapture is the doctrine of men.

Catholics doctines, not only have biblical evidence, but also safeguarded by the promise of Christ (The gates of hell shall not prevail)

Matthew 28:18-20;

Matthew 16:18;

John 14, 15, and 16;

I Timothy 3:14-15; and

Acts 15:28

I see many responses on here saying 'well we trust the church'.  I still always wonder why you think your church has the correct teachings.  The Eastern Orthodox Church had all the same beginnings as you, and without the filoque controversy would be the same thing.  Yet somehow their tradition is much different, not sure how you determine yours to be inspired and theirs to not be.  The Word of God is promised to stand forever but tradition is not.

The Orthodox split with Catholic initially caused by Photius' resentment to follow the authority of the Petrine See (Rome). Photius was ordained to the status of Patriarch by an excommunicated Bishop. Not to mention that the Alexandra See (where Photius was) still had its rightful Patriarch which was Ignatius.

The early church father has proclaimed the necessity of authority and the primacy of the Petrine See

Jerome

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, ‘He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!’ . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2).

Augustine

"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).

"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]).

Photius disobeyed the rightful authority.

You can make a strong argument the Apostolic Kerygma was extremely influential in the early church, but you can't make a strong argument that it is the same teaching you use today.

Give specific recent teaching and I will trace that teaching back to early church.

Edited December 24, 2003 by beng

[dUSt]

Peace be with you Circle_Master.

Scripture also says Christ is the Door.  I don't see you bowing down to doors and worshipping them because they are Christ.  Christ is also the rock.  You don't worship rocks either.

Of course the Bible uses metaphors. But it's not 100% metaphors. There are places where it is literal. Who defines what is literal and what is a metaphor? You?

Not accept blindly the doctrines of man.

Exactly.

I see many responses on here saying 'well we trust the church'.  I still always wonder why you think your church has the correct teachings.  The Eastern Orthodox Church had all the same beginnings as you, and without the filoque controversy would be the same thing.  Yet somehow their tradition is much different, not sure how you determine yours to be inspired and theirs to not be.

Apostolic succession. History.

The Word of God is promised to stand forever but tradition is not.

Okay--the Word of God is Bible+Tradition. We agree that it will stand forever.

Did you mean to say that the Bible will stand forever without the help of Tradition? Where is that promised?

You can make a strong argument the Apostolic Kerygma was extremely influential in the early church, but you can't make a strong argument that it is the same teaching you use today.

I don't understand. If the teaching is the same, how can we not make that argument?

God bless.

[musturde]

heated debate :D

[dUSt]

Peace be with your Circle_Master. Let us pray that we are granted understanding with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I don't see anywhere a promise that someone with Apostolic authority (i.e. the pope) will exist, except without the miracles either.

I'll just touch on this one point.

You obviously realize that Christ did choose apostles, and gave those apostles teaching authority. I think it's safe to assume you believe this. Now, do you believe that that authority just died out with the apostles? Is this what Christ intended? If so--what do you base this belief on? And then explain why a successor was chosen (Mathias) to replace Judas.

God bless.

[foundsheep]

Matt 16:16-18 first of all I am sure has been debated here, but I will not go there.

I can agree however that the keys were given to Peter. You can also see God using Him three times with those keys when he gives the message on Pentecost bringing in Jews, when he gives the message bringing in Gentiles, and when he gives the message bringing in Samarians.

I don't believe that the physical church was ever given the mission to 'rule' the world. I believe that idea has sprung more out of the amillenialism and postmillenialism within the Catholic Church. Wow, It's so hard to choose what to say without opening up a plethora of debates. I do see however during a millenial reign the church ruling the world with the OT saints.

I'm not sure if your last comment of 'condemning the hierarchy' was aimed at me or not. I do however disagree with the Catholic Church for a plethora and a half of reasons and I find truth within Scripture and studying tradition to see which can give the correct interpretation if one currently exists. I don't see anywhere a promise that someone with Apostolic authority (i.e. the pope) will exist, except without the miracles either.

I implore you to read John 6:66, When they realized it wasnt a parable. As what some do now. They walk away thinking they are walking towards.

Its been awhile since Ive heard the old door analogy.

[musturde]

"John 6:66 some where badly shaken, it's time to stop faking before we all be rudely awaken" Fr. Stan Fortuna

[beng]

I don't believe that the physical church was ever given the mission to 'rule' the world.  I believe that idea has sprung more out of the amillenialism and postmillenialism within the Catholic Church.  Wow, It's so hard to choose what to say without opening up a plethora of debates.  I do see however during a millenial reign the church ruling the world with the OT saints.

Mathew 18:15-17

15"If your brother sins against you,[2] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[3] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[4] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[5] loosed in heaven.

19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

There is only one visible Church

Mathew 18:17 --> If there's a conflict we ought to go to the church for solution. The church will have the final say. Protestant can't do that as they believe in invisible church within denomination.

What if me and my brother disagree about the neccessity of water baptism. I believe that water baptism is a must. My brother said that if we believe in Christ then we are spiritually baptist.

For me, I would drag him to Church of Christ' elders to proof that I AM RIGHT!! But in return he would drag me to the Reformed Presbyterian Church's elder to proof that I AM WRONG.

The Church that Christ established doesn't work that way.

Furthermore, these elders decision is necessary for salvation because "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[4] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[5] loosed in heaven. (Mathew 18:18). What those elders bind WILL BE PERMANENT. It would affect you in the afterlife. If you follow the Protestant argument then there can's be no assurance of which is right, because, afterall, according to protestant, the Church is invisible and every denominations are the body of that invisible church. That is blatantly impossible.

and I find truth within Scripture and studying tradition to see which can give the correct interpretation if one currently exists. 

So it's all depends on you. What makes your interpretation better than say... your brother? Or your mom? Or your long lost Anglican uncle? They all, as with you, claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I don't see anywhere a promise that someone with Apostolic authority (i.e. the pope) will exist, except without the miracles either.

Early Church Fathers commenting on Apostolic succession and Petrine Primacy.

Jerome

"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]).

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. ... In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

Tertullian

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

Origen

"Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]" (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]).

Texts which show Church Hierarchy (Bishops etc)

Acts 20:28

28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[1] (the [1]is a footnote that explains the word Overseers was traditionally Bishops)

Phillipians 1:1

1Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers[1] (Again the footnote denotes that overseer was traditionally translated as Bishops)

1 Timothy 3

The whole chapters talk about Hierarchy of bishops and deacons that Paul wanted to established. For what purpose? 1 Tim 3:15...you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth

There are more. But these should suffice.

Edited December 24, 2003 by beng

[Bruce S]

It is dangerous when one takes one sentence (in this case, a 1/2 a sentence), and uses it to mean whatever he wants. I'm sure if you knew Catholicism like you say you do, it's fairly obvious that the Church doesn't teach that we all become Gods. What we DO believe is that we all make up the Body of Christ, who by the way, is God.

I know that, and I would suppose the people that WROTE your CCC know that too, so just SAY THAT. Grin.

Just having some fun with the doctrine here, it is those "MAN MADE TEACHINGS" that get you guys in trouble all the time. Wonder if the next rewrite of your belief system will clear that little glitch up?

:rolling: