The Reformation

[dUSt]

Pull out your CCC and check these references, and let me have a Catholic explain these two for me. These ones baffle...

#795 - Catechism of Catholic Church, 1994

#460 - Catechism of Catholic Church, 1994

795

Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.

Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."

460

The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

What baffles you about these sections?

[jmjtina]

At least honor real people, there are MANY worthy of honor, it is this sort of thing that gives the Catholic Church a black eye with Protestants.

We do honor real people. Juan Diego was as real as you and I.

Last year, Father Guillermo Schulenberg [former HEAD of the SHRINE, the man MOST in a postition to KNOW] sent a letter to the Vatican disputing the very existence of Juan Diego.

why do you add "the man most in position to know"? What authority do you have to make such a claim? In fact, the next quote discredits him completely:

In a 1995 interview with the Jesuit magazine Ixtus, Father Schulenberg said Juan Diego "is a symbol, not a reality" and he called Juan Diego's 1990 beatification by Pope John Paul II "recognition of a cult. It is not recognition of the physical, real existence of a person." He soon retired as abbot of the Guadalupe shrine following the controversy caused by his remarks.

He says that he is not a real person? There is proof that he WAS real. Why do you believe only what you will? There are cold hard facts, more importantly, the tilma, which is VISIBLE even now. The Church will not expose herself to ridicule, or worse, heresy, if there was the slightest doubt about Juan Diego's existence.

We have over 30 documents dated shortly after Juan Diego's life time talking

about him as a real man. These documents include his death certificate in the

archives of Mexico City's Cathedral.

NICAN MOPOHUA: APPARITIONS OF OUR LADY OF GUADALUPE

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Sometime around the middle of the 16th century, less than two decades after the apparition of the Mother of God to Blessed Juan Diego, an account of the events was written in Nahuatl (the language of the Aztecs) by Don Antonio Valeriano, a native scholar. It is called Nican Mopohua. The Spanish version was translated into English in the 1980s by Fr. Real Bourque, OMI. The numbered division of the text allows a meditative reading of each of 218 details in the account.

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Here is the account, in its proper order, of how quite recently, miraculously, there appeared the Perfect Virgin Holy Mary, Mother of God, our Queen, at the Tepeyac hill, known as Guadalupe.

First, she allowed Herself to be seen by a little Macehual (Indian), by the name of Juan Diego; then her precious image appeared before the recently elected Bishop Don Fray Juan de Zumarraga.

1. Ten years after the conquest of the city of Mexico, when all arrows and shields had been laid aside, when there was peace everywhere among the peoples,

2. faith began to sprout and put forth green shoots, opening up its corolla to the knowledge of Him through Whom one lives: the true God.

3. In that year, 1531, within a few days of the month of December, a Macehual (little Indian), a poor man of the people

4. named Juan Diego lived, it is said, in Cuautitlan,

5. although in all things related to God (his religion) he belonged to Tlatilolco (the parish in Mexico).

First Encounter of Saturday

6. It was Saturday, very early, at dawn, and he was going in search of God and his commandments.

7. As he approached the small hill called Tepeyac, as the day was already breaking,

8. he heard singing from the small hill, like the song of many fine birds; when their voices ceased it was as if the hill answered with songs even more gentle, more joyful than those of the coyoltototl, the tzinitzcan and of other delicate song birds.

9. Juan stopped to look around. He said to himself: "Am I worthy of what I hear? Perhaps I am only dreaming it? Perhaps I am only seeing it as in dream?

10. Where am I? Where do I find myself? Could this be the place that the old ones, our ancestors, spoke about; the land of flowers, the land of corn, of our meat and our sustenance? Could this be the heavenly land?"

11. He stood looking up towards the top of the hill, from the side where the sun rises, from where the beautiful celestial song came.

12. When the song suddenly ceased, when it could no longer be heard, then he began to hear someone calling him from the top of the little hill: "Juanito, Juan Dieguito!"

13. Then he dared to go where he was being called. Nothing troubled his heart: he was not anxious about anything. Rather, he felt extremely joyous and happy; he made his way up to the small hill to see where he was being called.

14. When he came to the summit of the little hill, a Maiden was standing there. When she saw him,

15. She told him to come closer.

16. When he arrived in front of Her, He greatly admired in what manner, above all comprehension, her perfect beauty was expressed.

17. Her dress shone like the sun, as if it were gleaming,

18. and the stone, the rock on which she was standing, seemed to be sending forth beams of light;

19. Her splendor looked like that of precious stones, as "ajorca" (though even more beautiful),

20. the ground sparkled as the rays of a rainbow in the mist.

21. The mesquite bushes, the cactus, and other scrubby plants that grew there looked like emeralds. Their foliage was like turquoise, and their stems, thorns and leaves shone like gold.

22. He prostrated himself in her presence, listening to her voice and to her words, which were full of praise, very affable, as those of someone who wished to attract him and esteemed him highly.

23. She said: "Listen my son, little one, Juanito, where are you going?"

24. And he answered: "My Lady, Queen, my Little Child, I am going to your little house of Mexico, Tlatilolco, to follow the things of God which are given and taught to us by those who are the images of our Lord: Our priests."

25. Then she spoke to him and made known her precious will;

26. She told him: "Know for certain, my son, the smallest one, that I am the perfect and ever virgin holy Mary, mother of the true God, through whom one lives, the creator of mankind, the one who owns what is near and beyond, the owner of heaven and earth. I ardently desire that here they build me my sacred little house, a 'Teocalli',

27. Where I will show him, I will exalt him and make him manifest.

28. Where I will offer him to all the people with all my love, my compassionate gaze and my help, my salvation

29. Because I an truly your merciful mother,

30. Yours and mother of all who live united in this land,

31. And of all mankind, of all those who love me, of those who cry to me, of those who search for be, of those who have confidence in me.

32. There I will listen to their cry, to their sadness, so as to curb all their different pains, their miseries and sorrow, to remedy and alleviate their sufferings.

33. So to realize what my compassionate, merciful gaze intends, go to the palace of the bishop of Mexico and tell him that I sent you to make known to him what I deeply desire, that he provide me with a house, that he build my temple in the plain. You will tell him everything you have seen, admired, and heard.

34. Be assured that I shall be very grateful and will reward you,

35. I will enrich you and glorify you,

36. And you will greatly merit that I repay your weariness, your service with which you will request this matter to which I send you.

37. Now my son, my smallest one, you have heard my voice; go and do everything the best you can."

38. Immediately in her presence Juan bowed very low and said: "My Lady, my Little Daughter, I am going to fulfill your venerable desire, your venerable word, for now I depart from you, I your poor little Indian."

39. He then took leave of her and descending the rocky slope of Tepeyac, set off in rapt wonder towards Mexico City.

First Meeting with the Bishop

40. Upon reaching the center of the city he went directly to the palace of the Bishop, who had arrived only very recently, as Governing Priest. His name was Don Fray Juan de Zummarraga, a priest of St. Francis.

41. As soon as Juan arrived, he tried to see the Bishop. He pleaded with his servants, the members of his household, to go and tell him.

42. Then after a long time his personal helpers came to call him, when the Lord Bishop ordered that he should enter.

43. When he entered he knelt in front of the Bishop, he prostrated himself and told of the precious voice, the precious words of the Queen of Heaven, what her message was, and he told of all he had admired, seen, and heard.

44. Having listened to the whole story and to his message as well, which he did not hold to be entirely true,

45. the Bishop responded: "My son, another time you will come and with more calm I will listen from the beginning; I will see and consider the reason for which you have come, your will and desire."

46. Juan Diego went out; he was sad because his mission was not realized immediately.

Second Encounter of Saturday

47. Toward the end of the day, he returned straight to the top of the hill

48. where he had seen the Queen of Heaven earlier; Our Lady, clothed in light, was waiting for him.

49. When he saw Her, he fell at once to his knees, and bowing low before Her, said:

50. "My Little Patroness, my Lady, Queen, my smallest daughter, I went where you sent me in order to fulfill your amiable voice, amiable word. Although it was difficult for me to enter the place where the Governing Priest lives, I saw him and before him I exposed your voice, your word, as you requested.

51. He received me kindly and listened perfectly, but from what he answered me, it seemed as if he did not understand and was not sure.

52. He said to me: you will come another time. I will calmly listen to you from the beginning and I will see why you came, your desire, your will.

53. I believe, according to the way he answered me, he thinks the house you want them to build here for you may be my invention, or maybe it does not come from your lips.

54. I beg you very much, my Lady, Queen, my little girl, entrust one of the noblemen, someone who Is esteemed, who Is known, respected, honored, to direct, to carry out your amiable wish, your amiable word, so that they will believe him.

55. Because truly I am a man of the fields, I myself need to be led; I am like a beast of burden, like a tall, like a wing, to be loaded with a burden. It is not up to me to decide the place, where I go or where I stop.

56. Please forgive me, I will afflict your countenance, your heart with sorrow; I will fall in your anger, in your displeasure. Lady, my owner, I belong to you."

57. The Perfect Virgin, worthy of honor and veneration, answered him:

58. "Listen, the smallest of my sons, be assured that those who serve me, my messengers, entrusted to carry my voice, my word, to accomplish my will, are not few in number:

59. But it is very necessary that you personally go, request that my wish, my will, be realized, be carried out, through your intercession.

60. I beg you earnestly, youngest son of mine, and solemnly do command you that once again tomorrow you go to see the bishop.

61. From my part, let him know, let him hear my wish, my will, so that he will make, he will build the temple that I ask.

62. So, once again, tell him that it is I personally, the ever virgin, holy Mary, the Mother of God who is sending you."

63. Juan Diego in turn answered Her, saying: "My Lady, Queen, my little girl, don't let me cause any pain in your face or in your heart. With great pleasure I will go to carry your voice your word. Nothing will stop me, nor will I find the road too hard.

64. I shall go to carry out your will but maybe I shall not be heard and if I am heard maybe I shall not be believed.

65. Tomorrow evening, when the sun sets, I shall return to tell your word, your voice, what the Governing Priest will have answered me.

66. I now respectfully say farewell to you, Smallest of my Daughters, Young One, my Lady, my little Child: rest a little while."

67. Then he also went to his own house to rest.

Meeting with the Bishop on Sunday

68. On the next day, Sunday, when it was still night, when it was still dark, he left his house. He went straight to Tlatilolco to learn the ways of God and to be counted on the list, to see the Lord Bishop only afterwards.

69. At about ten o'clock he was ready: he had heard Mass and been counted on the list and the people dispersed.

70. Juan Diego then went to the palace of the Lord Bishop.

71. As soon as he arrived he did everything he could to see the Bishop; only after a lot of effort did he see him again.

72. He knelt at the Bishop's feet, he cried, he became sad as he spoke, as he explained the word, the mission, the voice of the Queen of Heaven.

73. He hoped that his mission would be believed, the will of the Perfect Virgin to do, to build her little sacred house where she said, where she wanted it.

74. The Governing Bishop asked him very many things, he questioned him to discover where he had seen Her, what she looked like. He told the Lord Bishop absolutely everything.

75. Although he declared absolutely everything, and in each thing the Bishop saw, admired with all clarity that she was the Perfect Virgin, the Kind, Wonderful Mother of our Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ,

76. nothing, however, came of it.

77. The Bishop said that it could not be by Juan Diego's word alone that his petition would be done, would be realized;

78. some other sign was very necessary before it could be believed that he had been sent by the Queen of Heaven in person.

79. As soon as Juan Diego heard this he said to the Bishop:

80. "Lord Governor, consider what sign you would like, because I shall now go to ask it of the Queen of Heaven who sent me."

81. The Bishop, having seen that Juan Diego confirmed everything, that he never hesitated, nor showed any doubt, dismissed him.

82. As soon as he had left, the Bishop sent some of the members of his household in whom he had complete confidence to follow him, to observe where he went, whom he saw, with whom he spoke.

83. And thus it was done. Juan Diego went out; he just followed the road.

84. Those who followed him lost sight of him at the end of the causeway near the Tepeyac at the wooden bridge. Although they looked everywhere, they could not find him.

85. So they went back, not only because they were greatly upset with that, but also because they could not fulfill their attempt and that made them angry.

86. So they went to relate to the Lord Bishop, to put into his head that he should not believe him, that he was telling nothing but lies, that he had invented what he had told the Bishop, or that he had only dreamed or imagined what he said and what he asked.

87. And then they determined that if once again he were to return, they would lay hands on him and punish him severely so that he would not again tell lies and cause trouble.

Encounter of Sunday

88. In the meantime Juan Diego was with the Blessed Virgin, telling her the answer that he brought from the Bishop.

89. When she had heard it, the Lady said:

90. "Well done my little son; you will return here tomorrow so that you may take the bishop the sign that he has asked for.

91. With that he will believe you, and he will not doubt this any longer, nor distrust you.

92. Know, little son, that I will repay you for the trouble, the labor, and the weariness that I have caused you.

93. There now, go. For tomorrow I will wait for you here."

The Sickness of his Uncle

94. The next day, Monday, the day when Juan Diego should have taken a sign to be believed, he did not return.

95. When he returned to his house, his sick uncle, Juan Bernardino, was now very bad.

96. Although Juan Diego went for the doctor, and he did what he could, it was too late; he was very gravely ill.

97. When night came, his uncle begged him, even though it was not yet dawn and still dark, to go forth to Tlatilolco, to fetch a priest who would hear his confession, who would prepare him.

98. He was sure that this was the time, this was the place to die; because he would never get up again, he would not be cured.

99. So on Tuesday, when it was still very much night, there from his house came Juan Diego to call a priest from Tlatilolco.

100. When he had reached the foot of the little hill, where the Sierra ends, where the path emerges on the side where the sun sets, where he had come before, he said to himself:

101. "If I follow the path straight ahead, the Lady might see me and surely she will detain me as she has done before, that I may take the sign to the ecclesiastical Governor as she commanded me.

102. First, lot her allow us to deal with our own troubles, lot me first quickly call the religious priest that my uncle is waiting for so anxiously."

103. He then made his way around the hill, climbed towards the middle and when there he crossed to the eastern side, to come out rather quietly, to go to Mexico, so that the Queen of Heaven would not stop him.

104. He thought that the roundabout road he took would keep her from seeing him, she for whom every place is perfectly seen.

The Encounter of Tuesday

105. He saw her as she came down from the top of the hill, from where she had been watching him, from where she saw him before.

106. she came to meet him on the side of the hill; she came to stand in his way and said:

107. "What is it, smallest of my sons? Where are you going, where are you heading?"

108. And he, maybe he grieved a little, perhaps he felt ashamed, or maybe he was startled or became frightened.

109. In her presence, he prostrated himself, greeted Her, and said:

110. "My Little Girl, my smallest Daughter, my Child. I hope you are happy, how are you this morning? Is your dear little body well, my Lady my Child?

111. With pain, I will distress your face, your heart. I tell you, my little Girl, that one of your servants, my uncle, is gravely ill.

112. A terrible illness has him in its grip, and surely he will die of it soon.

113. Now I must go rapidly to your little house in Mexico to call one of the loved ones of Our Lord, one of our priests, to hear his confession and prepare him.

114. In reality we were born for that, we who have come to await the labor of our death.

115. However, when I have done this I shall return here and carry your voice, your word, my Lady, my young One.

116. I beg of you to forgive me, still have a little more patience with me, because I am not deceiving you, my Youngest Daughter, my Child. Tomorrow without fall I will come In haste."

117. When she had heard his excuses the Perfect and Pious Virgin said to Juan Diego:

118. "Listen and keep in your heart, my youngest son, that there is nothing for you to fear, nothing to afflict you. Let neither your face nor your heart be worried. Do not fear this nor any other illness, nor anything pounding nor afflicting.

119. Am I not here, I who an your mother? Are you not in my shadow, under my protection? Am I not the fountain of your joy? Are you not in the fold of my mantle, in my crossed arms? Is there anything else you need?

120. Don't let anything afflict you, perturb you. Let not the sickness of your uncle cause pain. He will not die of it now. Be assured that he is well."

121. At that very moment his uncle recovered, as it was later known.

122. When Juan Diego heard these loving words, the loving voice of the Queen of Heaven, he was filled with consolation and his heart was set at rest.

123. He begged her to send him at once to the Governing Bishop, to bring something as a sign, a proof, so that he would believe.

124. Then the Queen of Heaven told him to climb to the top of the little hill where he had seen her before.

125. She said: "Climb, smallest of my sons, to the top of the little hill where you saw me and where I gave you my commands.

126. There you will see many flowers; cut them, pick them, gather them together, them come back here, bring then here to my presence."

127. So Juan Diego climbed the little hill.

128. When he reached the top he was filled with wonder at the sight of so many flowers in full bloom, flowers of the greatest variety, beautiful and splendid, though their proper time to bloom had not yet come.

129. For truly at that season the frost was very keen.

130. From the flowers came the sweetest of perfumes. They were like precious pearls steeped in the dew of the night.

131. He then began to cut them, gathering them all together, placing them in the fold of his tilma (apron).

132. Certainly the summit of the little hill was no place to find any flowers; nothing could flourish there only weeds, wild bushes, thorns, nopales and mesquites.

133. And if by chance a few blades of grass were to sprout, it was December, when frost kills everything, destroys everything.

134. When he came down, he brought the different flowers he had cut to the Heavenly Child.

135. When she saw them, she took them in her venerable hands

136. and put them again in the fold of his ayate (apron) and said:

137. "My youngest little son, these various flowers are the proof, the sign that you will take to the bishop.

138. You will tell him in my name to see in them my wish, and because of them he can fulfill my wish, my will.

139. Juan, you who are my messenger, in you is placed absolutely all my confidence.

140. I order you most severely that only in the presence of the bishop, when you are alone with him, are you to open your ayate and show him what you bring.

141. You will tell him everything exactly. You will tell him that I ordered you to climb to the top of the little hill to cut flowers. Tell him everything you saw and admired.

142. Thus, you will be able to convince the governing priest that he should do everything in his power to make, to build my temple, which I have asked for."

143. As soon as the Celestial Queen had given her command, he set out on the road, straight to Mexico  he came happily.

144. So he came, his heart at peace because everything would work out well, he would fulfill it perfectly.

145. He was very careful of what he carried in the fold of his apron, for fear of dropping something.

146. He walked along, enjoying the fragrance of the varied precious flowers.

Meeting with Bishop: The Miraculous Image

147. When he reached the Bishop's palace, the porter and other servants of the Governing Priest came out to meet him.

148. He begged them to tell the Bishop that he wished to see him, but none of them would do so; they pretended they did not understand him or that it was still too dark.

149. Or perhaps because they knew him, that he would just bother them, annoy them.

150. Their comrades had already told them about him, those who had lost sight of him when they had tried to follow him.

151. For a very long time he waited for an answer.

152. He stood there for a long time, head down, doing nothing, just in case he would be called. When they saw that he looked like he was carrying something in the fold of his tilma, they approached him to see what he had and stop wondering.

153. When Juan Diego realized that there was no way to hide from them what he was carrying, and therefore that they would molest him and push him, and maybe even beat him, he allowed them a glimpse of his flowers.

154. When they saw such fine and varied flowers and they realized that it was not the time for them to bloom, they admired them very much: how fresh they were, how wide open, how fragrant and lovely they were.

155. They wanted to grab some and take them out.

156. Three times they dared to try to take them but there was no way they could do so.

157. When they made their attempts the flowers no longer seemed real; they were as if painted, embroidered or sewn on the tilma.

158. They went at once to tell the Governing Bishop of what they had seen.

159. They told him how much the little Indian who had come before wanted to see him, and that he had been waiting for a long time for permission to see him.

160. The Governing Bishop, as soon as he heard this, realized that this was the proof which was to convince him to put into effect the work that the little man had asked to have done.

161. He gave orders that Juan Diego be brought into his presence immediately.

162. Having entered, Juan Diego prostrated himself in his presence, as he had done before.

163. Once again he told him what he had seen, what he had admired, and his message.

164. He said: "My Lord, Governor, I did, I carried out, what you commanded me.

165. I went to tell the Lady, my Mistress, the Heavenly Child, Maiden, Holy Mary, the Beloved Mother of God, that you asked for proof in order to believe me, so that you would make her sacred little house, where she asked you to build it.

166. I also told her that I had given you my word to bring you some sign, some proof of her will, as you told me to do.

167. She listened well to your voice, your word, and received with pleasure your petition for the sign, the proof, so that her beloved will be done and verified.

168. Now, while it was still night, she ordered me to come to see you again.

169. I asked her for the proof so that I would be believed, according to the promise she had made to me and she fulfilled it immediately.

170. She sent me to the top of the little hill where I had already seen Her, to cut there various roses of Castile,

171. and when I cut them, I took them down to Her

172. and she took them in her holy hands;

173. once again she put them in the fold of my ayate (apron),

174. so that I would bring them to you, so that I would give them to you personally.

175. Although I knew well that the top of the hill is not a place where flowers will grow since only weeds, wild scrub, thorny bushes, cactus, and mesquites grow there, not even for that reason did I doubt or hesitate.

176. When I arrived at the top of the little hill, I thought I was already In paradise.

177. There they were, already all perfect: the varied precious flowers, the finest ones, full of dew, resplendent; I went and cut them.

178. She told me to give them to you from her and that by so doing I would provide proof. You would see in it the sign you asked for so that her beloved will would be fulfilled.

179. To show that my word, my message is true

180. here they are. Do me the favor of receiving them."

181. Then Juan Diego unfolded his white tilma, in which fold she had put the flowers

182. so that all the varied precious flowers fell to the floor.

183. Then there appeared the sign, before their very eyes, the Beloved Image of the Perfect Virgin, Holy Mary, Mother of God, in the form and figure that can be seen now,

184. where it is still preserved in her beloved little house, in her sacred little house in Tepeyac, which is called Guadalupe.

185. As soon as the Governing Bishop and all who were there saw Her, they fell to their knees, admiring her very much.

186. They stood up to see Her, becoming sad and grieving, their hearts and thoughts in suspense.

187. The Governing Bishop was in tears; sadly he begged her forgiveness for not having by then fulfilled her will, her venerable voice, her venerable word.

188. When he stood up he untied the tilma of Juan Diego where it was knotted at his neck,

189. and on which she appeared, on which the Celestial Queen was converted into a sign.

190. He then took the tilma and placed it in his oratory.

191. Juan Diego spent the day in the house of the Bishop, who would not let him go.

Juan Diego's Uncle is healed

192. The next day the Bishop said: "Come, bring me to where the Queen of Heaven wants us to build her temple."

193. Immediately, some people came forward, eager to offer their services to build the little house, the little temple.

194. As soon as Juan Diego had showed where the Lady of Heaven had ordered her sacred little house to be built, he asked for permission to be excused.

195. He wanted to go to his house to see his uncle Juan Bernardino, who had been so ill when he had left him to get a priest in Tlatilolco to hear his confession before he died and prepare him, of whom the Queen of Heaven had said he was already cured.

196. But they did not let him go alone; they accompanied him to his house.

197. When they arrived they saw his uncle already cured, totally free of pain.

198. And he, on his part, admired very much the way his nephew was accompanied and honored.

199. He asked his nephew what was happening, why were they honoring him so much.

200. Juan explained that when he left to get the priest for his confession and preparation, the Lady of Heaven appeared to him in the Tepeyac

201. and she sent him to Mexico to see the Governing Bishop, so that he would build a house for her in the Tepeyac,

202. and that the Lady had told him not to be afflicted, that his uncle was happy; with that he had been greatly consoled.

203. His uncle replied that this was true; in that precise moment he had been healed.

204. He had seen her in exactly the same form as she had appeared to his nephew

205. and she told him also to go to Mexico to see the Bishop

206. and that when he saw him, he would reveal absolutely everything and tell all that, he had seen

207. including the wonderful way in which she had healed him,

208. and that her Beloved Image would be called, would be named the Perfect Virgin, Holy Mary of Guadalupe.

209. Then they brought Juan Bernardino to the presence of the Governing Bishop so that he might speak to him, to give his testimony.

210. Together with his nephew, Juan Diego, the Bishop lodged them in his house for some days.

211. Meanwhile, the little sacred house of the Queen Child was built in the Tepeyac, where she had been seen by Juan Diego.

212. The Lord Bishop removed the Image of the Beloved Heavenly Child to the main church.

213. He took her Beloved Image out of his palace, out of his oratory, so that it might be seen and admired by everyone.

214. Absolutely all from that city, without exception, were shaken when they came to see, to admire the precious Image.

215. They came to recognize its divine character;

216. They came to offer their prayers.

217. They greatly admired that miraculous way in which she appeared

218. since absolutely no man of earth had painted her Beloved Image.

BOTTOM LINE: For those who believe no explanation is required, for those who don't believe no explanation will suffice.

Peace and God Bless.

[jmjtina]

This is the Blessed Virgin whom I love. :wub:

St. Juan Diego, Pray for us!

Our Lady of Guadalupe, Pray for US!

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Authority must EARN authority ....

The Catholic Church has a pretty poor record in that area in the past few years. I'm NOT going to come here and dump and run the sins of the past few years, did that already over on the other site, and NO ONE bothered to actually ENGAGE on the FACTS I presented, nor do they seem to want to here with Juan, oh well, say a Rosary for me. Faith is wonderful, but faith without support undermines the REAL things that Catholics have going for them, and there are PLENTY.

Authority is WRONG too often, want to engage on this one? The recent scandals have conclusively shown that human leadership makes some pretty massive mistakes on VERY serious matters.

I was confused over this a couple of times as well, why we had false Popes and such. Satan would of loved me to use this as an excuse to leave Christs Church. But one thing occured to me when I thought about this. Yea, bad Popes were elected into Office, but not a one of them EVER create or changed a Dogma or a Teaching of the Church. Obviously the Holy Spirit protected Her, just like He promised. Thats the important thing, sure Popes are human too. Im sure not all the Popes were as Holy as Pope John Paul II. But the fact remains, nothing in matters of Teachings and Dogma were abused by these false Popes.

As for recent years, things going bad in the Church..yea, I admit they are bad. But so what? Does that all of a sudden NOT make this Christs Church? Does it make the 2000 year history disappear and nonexistant? Satan has given the Church Crusades, Schism's and Reformations and we are still here. My Faith says that we are going to rise above this recent garbage Satan has thrown at us and become even stronger. If people left because of the scandels of recent, shame on them. The Church is still going to be true, no matter what humans do in it.

Oh was this a profession of faith again? My bad, just cant seem to stop proclaim the good news

CatholicAndFanatical

[cmotherofpirl]

word!

[phatcatholic]

bruce,

what separates catholics from protestants is authority/rule of faith. so, lets just cut right to the chase.....

sola scriptura: defend it

[Bruce S]

Yea, bad Popes were elected into Office, but not a one of them EVER create or changed a Dogma or a Teaching of the Church. Obviously the Holy Spirit protected Her, just like He promised. Thats the important thing, sure Popes are human too. Im sure not all the Popes were as Holy as Pope John Paul II. But the fact remains, nothing in matters of Teachings and Dogma were abused by these false Popes.

We could go on and on. I want to remind you, that "bad Popes" made 1/2 of all catholics leave around the period 1500-1700. Certainly, those Popes, and "bad decisions" HURT "Mother Church" terribly. So, the "teachings" [and many of them were reformed internally BECAUSE of the rift] did in fact almost cost the church half of the membership, that is a fact.

As for recent years, things going bad in the Church..yea, I admit they are bad. But so what? Does that all of a sudden NOT make this Christs Church? Does it make the 2000 year history disappear and nonexistant? Satan has given the Church Crusades, Schism's and Reformations and we are still here. My Faith says that we are going to rise above this recent garbage Satan has thrown at us and become even stronger. If people left because of the scandels of recent, shame on them. The Church is still going to be true, no matter what humans do in it.

I feel sorry for the LAITY, and if you have followed my work on the other site, it is almost as if my heart bleeds for the laity of the Catholic Church, leadership ... not a priest here or there ... but the entire body of leadership has failed you greatly.

The Crusades were NOT as generally thought, I personally can DEFEND the Crusades. Everyone wants to forget that the Muslims STARTED this with their depredations against Christians, and their desire and efforts to wage WAR against Christianity.

People left THEN because of scandals [not sporadic, but endemic to] do now, and will continue until the clergy is accountable, and they NEVER will be in a Feudal system, more like the Kings and Nobility model than anything else.

This thread will go nowhere if we have Catholics that refuse to engage in meaningful discussion.

[Bruce S]

bruce,

what separates catholics from protestants is authority/rule of faith. so, lets just cut right to the chase.....

sola scriptura: defend it

Why? There are about six million posts and proof texts that have beat that one to death and back.

Personally, for ME, I think the real issue is a gross misunderstanding.

Catholics believe Protestants use ... now pay careful attention here, Sol**O** Scriptura, instead of Sol***A*** Scriptura.

The difference to me, is that *O* means ONLY, and *A* refers to ultimate authority.

I'm not aware of a single serious, concientious Protestant who uses ONLY the Bible, never looks at anything else, never reads a book, never seeks help in explaining, elaborating upon, and growing in understanding of the word.

Catholics like to pretend that we do, we don't.

However, when there is a dispute, and that happens naturally, the written word IN the Bible is the ultimate bottom line, not man's interpretation. Now I know ALL the arguements both for and against, I've spent a year reading them all, so we really don't have to refight here what started with Huss and Luther, for they have done all the homework and later Reformists continued it. So, that just turns into and exchange of Proof Texts, which YOU and I have access to...

Frankly, and I would be happy to toss up a hundred references, you have as many Catholics INTERNALLY that DO NOT BELIEVE AND FOLLOW official teachings as anyone, birth control comes immediately to mind, MOST Catholics in the USA, almost universally practice it, and that is FORBIDDEN, so you have DOCTRINE, official, pronounced doctrine that VIRTUALLY no Catholics follow, do they confess using birth control, and ask for pennace EACH week before taking Communion on Sunday? Of course not. THOSE Catholics are basically following Sol*O* Scriptura, PERSONAL rejection of the church teachings, others selectively too.

And I'm NOT talking about the radical fringe contained within the Catholic Church either.

[cmotherofpirl]

Why? There are about six million posts and proof texts that have beat that one to death and back.

Personally, for ME, I think the real issue is a gross misunderstanding.

Catholics believe Protestants use ... now pay careful attention here, Sol**O** Scriptura, instead of Sol***A*** Scriptura.

The difference to me, is that *O* means ONLY, and *A* refers to ultimate authority.

I'm not aware of a single serious, concientious Protestant who uses ONLY the Bible, never looks at anything else, never reads a book, never seeks help in explaining, elaborating upon, and growing in understanding of the word.

Catholics like to pretend that we do, we don't.

However, when there is a dispute, and that happens naturally, the written word IN the Bible is the ultimate bottom line, not man's interpretation. Now I know ALL the arguements both for and against, I've spent a year reading them all, so we really don't have to refight here what started with Huss and Luther, for they have done all the homework and later Reformists continued it. So, that just turns into and exchange of Proof Texts, which YOU and I have access to...

Frankly, and I would be happy to toss up a hundred references, you have as many Catholics INTERNALLY that DO NOT BELIEVE AND FOLLOW official teachings as anyone, birth control comes immediately to mind, MOST Catholics in the USA, almost universally practice it, and that is FORBIDDEN, so you have DOCTRINE, official, pronounced doctrine that VIRTUALLY no Catholics follow, do they confess using birth control, and ask for pennace EACH week before taking Communion on Sunday? Of course not. THOSE Catholics are basically following Sol*O* Scriptura, PERSONAL rejection of the church teachings, others selectively too.

And I'm NOT talking about the radical fringe contained within the Catholic Church either.

Of course the written word in the bible is not the bottom line unless you worship a book instead of God. THe bible never claims to be the sole rule of faith, and yes I know protestants who can't make a move in life unless they check their bible first.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

We could go on and on. I want to remind you, that "bad Popes" made 1/2 of all catholics leave around the period 1500-1700. Certainly, those Popes, and "bad decisions" HURT "Mother Church" terribly. So, the "teachings" [and many of them were reformed internally BECAUSE of the rift] did in fact almost cost the church half of the membership, that is a fact.

This is what im talking about Bruce, yea bad Popes made almost half the people in the Church leave, but somehow we rose above it and to this day still remain the largest Christian Church in the World. God will not let His Church fall. Never. He said the gates of Hell would not prevail, but he never said The Gates of Hell will not try to prevail.

My point to you is this: No matter how bad a Pope was in the Past, if he did not mess with the teachings or dogma's of the Church then they really had no affect on the Church.

I feel sorry for the LAITY, and if you have followed my work on the other site, it is almost as if my heart bleeds for the laity of the Catholic Church, leadership ... not a priest here or there ... but the entire body of leadership has failed you greatly.

I feel sorry for people who wanna discount the Church because of sinful people that made stupid decisions. Its rediculous to blame the entire Body of Priests and Bishops for the act of a small percentage. I feel a clean sweep coming in the Church, the bad will get tossed. But why flee Christs Church when the going gets tough? Stand firm with the Church, who is protected by God.

Your so quick to throw out everything the Church is so quickly. You said you was Catholic for 20 years. Dont you miss recieving Christ in the Eucharist, knowing that after receiving Him you and Christ are one? Dont you miss receiving a TRUE absolution when you confess? Dont you miss knowing you are in Union with God and the Church He established?

People like you are who I feel sorry for. Someone that would leave the Sacraments for something pety.

Frankly, and I would be happy to toss up a hundred references, you have as many Catholics INTERNALLY that DO NOT BELIEVE AND FOLLOW official teachings as anyone, birth control comes immediately to mind, MOST Catholics in the USA, almost universally practice it, and that is FORBIDDEN, so you have DOCTRINE, official, pronounced doctrine that VIRTUALLY no Catholics follow, do they confess using birth control, and ask for pennace EACH week before taking Communion on Sunday? Of course not. THOSE Catholics are basically following Sol*O* Scriptura, PERSONAL rejection of the church teachings, others selectively too.

Again, just because there are catholics out there that dont want to learn about the Church doesnt take away what the Church is. I have no idea if they confess using birth control before receiving the Eucharist. Thats between them and God, not you or I. But why is this any different than seeing a local pentecostal pastor at a strip joint, or seeing prot pastors being arrested for child porn rings? Why is this any different than seeing a pastor get hauled away by the police for being with a prostitute? How many prot pastors commit adultery? I can name a few here locally.

Maybe people should get the Oak tree out of their eye before trying to pluck the splinter in ours.

CatholicAndFanatical

[Bruce S]

Your so quick to throw out everything the Church is so quickly. You said you was Catholic for 20 years. Dont you miss recieving Christ in the Eucharist, knowing that after receiving Him you and Christ are one? Dont you miss receiving a TRUE absolution when you confess? Dont you miss knowing you are in Union with God and the Church He established?

No. Eucharist is a REMEMBERANCE, nothing more, nothing less. BREAD, simple bread ... sorry.

I have TRUE absolution for sins by going to God or Jesus, don't need a [most likely homosexual] man telling me HE has the power to grant, or NOT grant absolution. Sorry again.

Union? I have a great church, filled with Godly, believing Christians, and we don't need to pay homage to another fallible man in Rome, AND we can FIRE our pastor OURSELVES if he becomes a criminal, we don't have to wait till they reassign someone WE DON"T WANT to be our new pastor. Our way is better, sorry.

Do I miss the Catholic Church? Heck NO!! I am liberated from the baggage of idolatry [i'm one of those that really does believe the Catholic Church *in Practice* [i know the answers to that, but I OBSERVE what is done, not what is supposed to be done] is off in a serious decline in leadership, worship practice, and direction. FREE and loving it.

I understand that you feel otherwise, and I can respect that, but understand that we, the Protestants, find so much of Catholicsm just plain old goofy, as is DONE, not in how it is set up, but out there in the streets.

[Bruce S]

But why is this any different than seeing a local pentecostal pastor at a strip joint, or seeing prot pastors being arrested for child porn rings? Why is this any different than seeing a pastor get hauled away by the police for being with a prostitute? How many prot pastors commit adultery? I can name a few here locally.

IMMEDIATELY, today, FIRE THEM, strip them of the pastorship, toss them out and ostracise them. NOW.

Creeps should NOT be protected, coddled, and justice should not be perverted to protect the perverts.

See. I agree.

However, I have posted a few dozen posts FROM CATHOLICS like Governor Keating, who quit and called the Bishops of the USA, "Like The Mafia" with the code of omerta and silence.

I find perversion in the pulpit wrong, toss them out.

However, do a Google search, use the code words, Catholic, Seminary, Homosexual.

Wow. Be prepared to have your eyes opened, use CATHOLIC sourcing only, ignore the goofballs and just look for the INSIDERS telling you where the creeps come from.

I want to clean up OUR side of the street, and NOT have the OFFICIAL policy of giving perverts a pension for life [actual Catholic policy for all criminals that belong to religous orders, not parish priests].

[Bruce S]

460

The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

Edited December 24, 2003 by dUSt

[dUSt]

Wow. Rather Mormonish, don't you think? Make MEN GODS! Horrors. That is what Mormons believe, they "Can Become A God Someday" if they follow the WORKS and Temple rites fully.

First of all, that was a quote taken from St Thomas Aquinas, and when read in context does not say that a man will become a God, as you imply.

It is dangerous when one takes one sentence (in this case, a 1/2 a sentence), and uses it to mean whatever he wants. I'm sure if you knew Catholicism like you say you do, it's fairly obvious that the Church doesn't teach that we all become Gods. What we DO believe is that we all make up the Body of Christ, who by the way, is God.

C'mon man. Put forth some effort to be fair.

God bless.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Bruce, I was a protestant for 24 years, before joining the Catholic Church, i know your side of it. And I see nothing in a prot Church that resembles the Church that can be found as early at 100AD.

Can you show me something other than Catholic that was around at that time, and were Christian? You can only trace your church back to the 1500's if that, its man made.